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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Big Bird wrote:
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Better for 'brown women' to get their sh.t together and start making a fuss, if they want something done.
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I basically agree with this, and not because of any "folk marxist" sentimentalization of brown women either. It's just that I don't think westerners are going to accomplish much by lecturing people in other countries about their human rights problems.
I'm left-wing, and support the maintenance, and possible expansion, of the welfare state. However, I gotta say that nothing pisses me off more than hearing some goddamed eurotrash immigrant to Canada going on about how his beloved homeland has all these great welfare programs that the stingy Canadian government doesn't provide. If you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to live here. And I say this, even though I probably would agree that the Canadian welfare state should be expanded.
Nothing kills a social refom movement more swiftly than a perception that it's being spearheaded by outsiders. That's why those white girls parading bare-assed around Seoul to protest the fur business are such twits. When it comes to that kind of crap, Big Bird pretty much sums it up for me...
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| Nor do I take kindly to people of other cultures telling us Brits how to do things. My attitude to them is, if you don't like how it's done here, just F**K OFF, and that always has been my attitude. |
Of course, there are certain situations where it is valid for westerners, feminist or otherwise, to take a stand. Basically, when they are being asked to support or somehow endorse cultural practices that they find offensive. If Canada supplies foreign aid to a country that uses it to finance female genital mutilation in the hospitals, then Canada is well within its right to say "uhh, guys, if you wanna see another cheque coming your way, you'd best knock it off with the genital mutilation." And I agree 100% with Big Bird's complaints about voluntary immigrants who whine that the government isn't doing enough to make them feel like they're still living in the country that they themselves chose to leave. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Nothing kills a social refom movement more swiftly than a perception that it's being spearheaded by outsiders. |
Well put. That's exactly the point I've tried to make so many times on this forum. There's little we can acheive by lecturing other cultures how to do things. We'll simply make it worse for the victims and prolongue the 'backwardness' because their feeling of identity will take precedence over any sense of shame or empathy for the members of their society who are getting the crap. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Unless we're talking about Americans or Jews. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Unless we're talking about Americans or Jews. |
If, by that, you are refering to me, you've got that completely wrong (as usual).
I'm not interested in telling jews how to amend their culture. Nothing they do offends me anyway. You will only find me concerning myself with a certain section of jews, anyway. Israelis. And I am not very interested in what Israelis do INSIDE OF ISRAEL either. It's what they do OUTSIDE THE GREEN LINE, to a helpless captivated population that I find objectionable.
Quite simple really, but I'm sure you'll still have difficulty grasping that. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Unless we're talking about Americans or Jews. |
If, by that, you are refering to me, you've got that completely wrong (as usual).
I'm not interested in telling jews how to amend their culture. Nothing they do offends me anyway. I am not very interested in what Israelis do INSIDE OF ISRAEL either. It's what they do outside the green line, to a helpless captivated population that I find objectionable. |
you dont see the irony and hypocrisy? Why dont you speak as harshly about what the Muslims in YOUR COUNTRY do to a helpless, captivated population then? (i'm talking about muslim women)
and how about Sudan? The Shining Path? Thai separatism? people all around the world are abusing others and taking leaves as a means to achieve an end. Why do you object to just the Jews?
I know what it is- if a group abuses and oppreses people, and is financially successful- then they are worthy of criticism.
If a group abuses and oppreses people and is poor, and brown, then they are themselved victims and should be handled as thus.
How RACIST that you only expect moral behaviour from rich countries and ethnic groups. I guess they rest are a bunch of savages that don't know any better, eh? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Unless we're talking about Americans or Jews. |
If, by that, you are refering to me, you've got that completely wrong (as usual).
I'm not interested in telling jews how to amend their culture. Nothing they do offends me anyway. I am not very interested in what Israelis do INSIDE OF ISRAEL either. It's what they do outside the green line, to a helpless captivated population that I find objectionable. |
you dont see the irony and hypocrisy? Why dont you speak as harshly about what the Muslims in YOUR COUNTRY do to a helpless, captivated population then? (i'm talking about muslim women) |
And what do you want me to do about it on a forum like this? If this had a lot of muslims posting, I would find it quite an interesting discussion. But it does not. I know a lot of muslims in real life, and I have very interesting discussions with them (both male and female) about the good and bad things in their culture. You'd probably be surprised at what some of them have to say.
Some muslim women are having a terrible time, and are in terrible situations. I'm satisfied the police are slowly waking up to this (though they have a long way to go with dealing with domestic violence in both the muslim communities and the wider community). You'd be surprised, sweety, to find that many muslim women in the west are strong and independent and expect the same treatment as men. But, the fact is most muslim women in Britain get more sh.t from us than they do from muslims. Would you like to talk about that Chimpum?
I don't need to bring up the problems within some muslim cultures. We have the delightful BJWD to fulfill that role. I'd just be treading on his dainty little toes. 
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| and how about Sudan? The Shining Path? Thai separatism? people all around the world are abusing others and taking leaves as a means to achieve an end. Why do you object to just the Jews? |
I have explained this before. There are many many conflicts all over the world. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict interests me more than any other for this reason: the strange double standard that is applied. The conflict itself is not what fascinates me. It's the very interesting way the conflict is portrayed. Victim as Aggressor. Occupier as Victim. You seem obsessed with the fact that the Israelis are jews. Why are you so eager to point out that the Israelis are jews? Why is their ethnicity so important to you? I couldn't give a toss what they are. I see them as (mostly) white westerners, an extension of us. Their actions are endorsed by us, and in that we are quite complicit in this occupation. I do not see Britain as being so complicit in the Sudan or in the conflict in Thailand. If you think that is not so, please point out why.
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| I know what it is- if a group abuses and oppreses people, and is financially successful- then they are worthy of criticism. |
If you are talking about the US and Israel, you are wrong as to why I criticise. Israel and the US are British allies. I do not like my country being complicit in their transgressions. I'm interested in inspecting my own house first, and the company which we keep. There are too many conflicts around the world for me to sit here all day writing about. That would be f**king stupid. A complete waste of my life. I keep a few pet interests, and that's all the time I have to maintain. If you want to discuss Thai seperatism, be my guest. I'll join in on occasion, if time allows. As it is, I didn't expect to have to talk about Israel and Palestine on this thread. It is people like you who constantly want to bring it up with me.
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| If a group abuses and oppreses people and is poor, and brown, then they are themselved victims and should be handled as thus. |
And what do you want me to do for them? Please give me a step by step program by which I can save all the brown victims in the world from their brown oppressors.
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| How RACIST that you only expect moral behaviour from rich countries and ethnic groups. I guess they rest are a bunch of savages that don't know any better, eh? |
As usual you are talking out your silly arse. You haven't understood the point that me and OTOH were making, have you? While I may think some of the things people are doing to each other in other cultures are horrendous, there's not much I can do. Except perhaps boycott their goods. What do you want me to do for them, Chimpum. Tell me how I can help gays in Iran, or save women from honour killings in Iraq? How do I do it Chimpum? Give me some practical steps. Do we save them by nuking them, or by occupying them, perhaps? And there are so many countries where injustices continue, how do we afford to occupy them all or make war on them? Which countries should we choose to save first? Please tell me how you think I can help the poor brown people of the world?
Your statement is utterly stupid. Frankly, I marvel at your stupidity every time you speak to me. How can I demand all people of the world behave themselves the way I think they should? Please tell me again how it's done.
These are problems they have to sort out for themselves. I have no magic wand Chimpum. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: |
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For god's sake, shrill woman. All i say is that you should hold everyone up to the same moral standard. On this board, you have proven not to. You have defended the subjugation and oppresion of women by Muslims many a time (the niqab thread rings a bell).
You are a hypocrite. The end.
Let me guess. This is to be followed by unsunbstantiated personal anecdotes and ad hominem attacks. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
For god's sake, shrill woman. All i say is that you should hold everyone up to the same moral standard. On this board, you have proven not to. You have defended the subjugation and oppresion of women by Muslims many a time (the niqab thread rings a bell).
You are a hypocrite. The end.
Let me guess. This is to be followed by unsunbstantiated personal anecdotes and ad hominem attacks. |
Go read the thread again. You read it and pinpoint my opinion. The opinion I actually expressed was that I didn't like the niqab. I also couldn't make up my mind how best we could deal with it. Go read the thread again. You have serious reading comprehension difficulties, Chimpum. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I don't need to bring up the problems within some muslim cultures. We have the delightful BJWD to fulfill that role. I'd just be treading on his dainty little toes. |
Size 12's, actually. But I stand in awe of your cankles. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
I don't need to bring up the problems within some muslim cultures. We have the delightful BJWD to fulfill that role. I'd just be treading on his dainty little toes. |
Size 12's, actually. But I stand in awe of your cankles. |
If you consider my ankles to be big, you've got rather skewed perception. They're rather dainty in fact. And I rather like them. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| You shouldn't. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| This thread went from zero to zero in no time flat. I wonder if that counts as a sort of speed record? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Big Bird spends a lot of time defending the indefensible - Islam.
Their treatment of women hs not changed in about 1400 years. Christianity has done better than that. Judaism has done better. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Big Bird spends a lot of time defending the indefensible - Islam.
Their treatment of women hs not changed in about 1400 years. Christianity has done better than that. Judaism has done better. |
Um yeah right. Another donkey. You don't pay attention to what I defend. It's far too complicated for you. Requires too much thoughtl. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Unless we're talking about Americans or Jews. |
I would never dream of getting involved in American domestic issues. I have an opinion about numerous things within the USA, but I leave the social agitation to concerned Americans.
re: Israel, Big Bird has pretty much summed it up for me. Suffice to say that I care not one whit about their domestic policies, except insofar as those policies may be related to their expansionist foreign agenda. |
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