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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: Does Hollywood Cultivate and Export AntiAmericanism Abroad? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Depends on the movie, really. The Good Shepherd was about as one-sided as you could get, with the only real good guys in the entire agency apparatus being...
SPOILER ALERT
...the British agent the protagonist exposed at Yale and the old military officer played by De Niro himself.
The Manchurian Candidate is not a good example of an anti-American movie, because in it [SPOILER AGAIN], American soldiers play the victimized good guys against a single corporation, Manchurian Global. It is hardly an indictment of even the American system much less Americans themselves.
Michael Moore and perhaps to a minor extent Oliver Stone have produced genuinely anti-American movies. But The Good Shepherd and the movies of Michael Moore and Oliver Stone, don't exactly make up a lion's share of the movie industry. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Defining what were to be the supporters' central arguments, Kimball enumerated two specific ways in which Hollywood encourages anti-Americanism: by exporting a wealth of what he described as violent, tasteless representations of American culture that vilify government and corporations, and through films such as Syriana, which he said actively and directly criticize U.S. institutions and industry. |
Perhaps Kimball would prefer it if the American film industry were more like the Korean film industry, which uncritically extols the party line about the nobility of Korea's policies and intentions, at least in regard to foreign countries.
Of course, those Korean films, while they probably do go some way toward making Koreans feel good about themselves, are likely to elicit a puzzled shrug from anyone not spoon-fed the propaganda from birth. Personally, I think its a testament to America's strength that a multibillion dollar capitalist enterprise like Hollywood feels itself free to lambaste the received narrative. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| The Good Shepherd was about as one-sided as you could get... |
The only film that portrated CIA more sinister than The Good Shepherd that I can remember seeing was Seagal's Above the Law. Both buy into and promote "the omnipotent Rogue Elephant" allegation (the military-industrial complex deceives us all, assassinates presidents and senators, loves to torture innocents just for fun, deals drugs, blah, blah, blah), hook, line, and sinker.
Here is my favorite moment from the film...
| Soviet Defector wrote: |
| Soviet power is a myth. Great show. There are no spare parts. Nothing is working, nothing, it's nothing but painted rust. But you, you need to keep the Russian myth alive to maintain your military industrial complex. Your system depends on Russia's being perceived as a mortal threat. It's not a threat. It was never a threat. It will never be a threat. It's a rotted, loathed cow. |
DeNiro plays OSS's "Wild Bill" Donovan, by the way. Damon's character amalgamates Tracy Barnes and James Jesus Angleton. And William Hurt is Allen Dulles.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:11 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| ...I think its a testament to America's strength that a multibillion dollar capitalist enterprise like Hollywood feels itself free to lambaste the received narrative. |
I think one problem Kimball and the others in favor of the motion might point out is that most peoples and cultures outside of the United States remain unfamiliar with such nuances in American affairs and culture and they simply take the bitter assumptions and assertions in these films (and, in some cases, in the far left's literature I have referenced elsewhere) uncritically and at face value as do many indeed on this board.
This is all that America is to them: Blum, Chomsky, Moore, and Stone's America. Then, as in the South-Korean case you mention, they contrast this villified, "typically evil" American govt with their own self-righteous and faultless homeland. And this is in fact the dynamic to which Kimball and the others refer.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:10 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Right, I remember that part distinctly, too, because that's when I stood up and realized why the movie made me feel so ill. The soviet defector was channelling Chomsky's thesis, which is a crock of shit on that score anyway. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Of course Hollywood does!
They export an American product so defacto, they must be helping the cause of anti-Americanism! Seems so simple to me, ipso facto like....... So many people watch these movies laden with American ideals, so so many people must hate America.
DD |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Does Hollywood Cultivate and Export AntiAmericanism Abro |
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No.. it's overwhelmingly American foreign policy that creates anti-Americanism.
Hollywood (as well as economics) is one of the main reasons people like us and want to visit or move permanantly to our country. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like you two read the article and sympathize with those for or against the motion. Thanks for your well-considered responses.
Tiger Beer: I already knew you were under Ron Paul/Chalmers Johnson's sway. Is that all there is to it, then? Not complex and multifaceted but rather simple and monocausal?
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| With heavy sarcasm, Greenwald said it must be films such as Ocean's 11, Shrek, Spider-Man and Men in Black that inspire hatred for America, and not the mounting death toll of the Iraq war and destructive U.S. foreign policy. |
Thanks also to the well considered OP. I wish I had the guts to just title and link an article and then expect, "a well considered response...."
By the way, I consider the question, capital SSSSS silly.
DD |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: ... |
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This is all that America is to them: Blum, Chomsky, Moore, and Stone's America. Then, as in the South-Korean case you mention, they contrast this villified, "typically evil" American govt with their own self-righteous and faultless homeland. And this is in fact the dynamic to which Kimball and the others refer.
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This would appear to assume that all foreigners watch are so-called "anti-American" movies. Otherwise, they also get cute litlle Cinderella pieces like "Maid in Manhattan" and "Pretty Woman" as well as a whole assortment of other bits of Americana. In regards to Korea, would it be better if America stopped exporting "anti-American" movies, or Korea made more movies critical of their own society and government? Note also that Fahrenheit 9/11 was in and out of Korean cinemas faster than you can say 'kimchee'. Compare that to movies like Sleepless in Seattle or Finding Nemo.
And, if America is exporting "anti-Americanism" through Hollywood, then I would argue that Europe pretty much exports self-loathing. Are Europeans exporting "anti-Europe" movies with the likes of Children of Man, the Colors Trilogy, or Dancer in the Dark? Is "Dogville" anti-American?
Furthermore, as one panelist pointed out, there is a difference between being ant-American and being critical of America. Here is a list from Imdb of Oliver Stone's films:
1. Alexander (2004) (written by)
... aka Alexander Revisited: The Final Cut (USA: director's cut)
... aka Alexandre (France)
2. "America Undercover" (1 episode, 2004)
- Looking for Fidel (2004) TV Episode (narration)
3. Comandante (2003) (narration)
... aka Comandante (Spain)
4. Any Given Sunday (1999) (screenplay)
5. Evita (1996) (screenplay)
... aka Evita (Argentina)
6. Nixon (1995) (written by)
7. Natural Born Killers (1994) (screenplay)
8. Heaven & Earth (1993) (screenplay)
... aka Entre ciel et terre (France)
9. JFK (1991) (screenplay)
... aka JFK (France)
... aka JFK - Affaire non class�e (France: poster title)
10. The Doors (1991) (written by)
11. Born on the Fourth of July (1989) (screenplay)
12. Talk Radio (1988) (screenplay)
13. Wall Street (1987) (written by)
14. Platoon (1986) (written by)
15. 8 Million Ways to Die (1986) (screenplay)
16. Salvador (1986) (written by)
17. Year of the Dragon (1985) (screenplay)
18. Scarface (1983) (screenplay)
19. Conan the Barbarian (1982) (screenplay)
20. The Hand (1981) (screenplay)
21. Midnight Express (1978) (screenplay)
22. Seizure (1974) (written by)
... aka Queen of Evil
... aka Tango macabre (Canada: French title)
23. Last Year in Viet Nam (1971) (uncredited)
I'd be interested in hearing how this is indicative of Stone being "anti-American".
As for Michael Moore, his movies may be subjective, but it's equally subjective to call him anti-American. After all, he was very active in the 2004 election and his support of Wesley Clark. Clearly, his movies are attempts to change things as he sees fit. He wants America to be different, and it certainly isn't anti-American to assail the gun lobby or the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. For that matter, it's not anti-American to assail the Iraq War.
If any American film director has been properly anti-America, it would be Stanley Kubrik. I don't think Kubrik liked America, and he followed suit by not living there. Moore, Stone, and Chomsky all have ore than enough money to relocate as they see fit, but they don't. And here's a question: Was Dr. Strangelove an "anti-American" movie?
That brings up one final point. Foreigners who are seriously critical of the United States are frequently also as, if not more, critical of Hollywood itself. They by and large consider Hollywood movies commercial, mind-numbing trash. France and Korea have, or have had, in place rules to limit the amount of Hollywood movies offered by theaters in their country. In characterizing Hollywood exports as "anti-American", you who do so must be breathing a sigh of collective relief that said countries engage in such practices. If not, they might be more anti-American. 
Good night and good luck. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Good post, Nowhere Man. Couple of comments...
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| I don't think Kubrik liked America, and he followed suit by not living there. |
Well, I dunno how crazy he was about Britain either.
I read an interview with Kubrick once, in which he said that his main reason for living in England was that he didn't like Hollywood, but to make major movies you had to live in an English-speaking centre. I also read an interview with his wife in which she said that when they were living in New York, they were upset at all the crime.
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Was Dr. Strangelove an "anti-American" movie?
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Not precisely, but I think it contributed a lot to what has become the stock repertoire of anti-American imagery.
Incidentally, Kubrick himself, while definitely anti-war and possibly anti-American, was not what I would call left-wing.
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"Man isn't a noble savage, he's an ignoble savage," says Kubrick, reaching for the iced water. "He is irrational, brutal, weak, silly, unable to be objective about anything where his own interests are involved - that about sums it up. I'm interested in the brutal and violent nature of man because it's a true picture of him. And any attempt to create social institutions on a false view of the nature of man is probably doomed to failure."
Like what? "Well, many aspects of liberal mythology are coming to grief now -- but I don't want to give any examples or I'm going to sound like William Buckley...." |
http://www.kubrick.com/
(See The Hechinger Debacle) |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: ... |
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Quote:
I don't think Kubrik liked America, and he followed suit by not living there.
Well, I dunno how crazy he was about Britain either.
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And I didn't mean to imply that he liked Britain either. My point was that, if you hate America, especially if you're well-moneyed like Moore, Chomsky, etc... and you were, indeed, anti-America, it would be easy enough to vote with your feet.
Given that Chomsky et al don't leave America, I think it's a fallacy to say that they hate America or are anti-American. I see posters on this board basically, by no one contradicting them, trying to eastablish that Chomsky and Moore's behavior is anti-American. I strongly disagree.
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Quote:
Was Dr. Strangelove an "anti-American" movie?
Not precisely, but I think it contributed a lot to what has become the stock repertoire of anti-American imagery.
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But do you see a lot of imagery invoked from Dr. Strangelove nowadays?
Moreover, is Slim Pickens astride a nuclear bomb "anti-American imagery", or is it "anti-nuclear war imagery"? Was this depiction aimed at all of America or only those who believe life would be easier if we just nuked everyone?
| Quote: |
Incidentally, Kubrick himself, while definitely anti-war and possibly anti-American, was not what I would call left-wing.
Quote:
"Man isn't a noble savage, he's an ignoble savage," says Kubrick, reaching for the iced water. "He is irrational, brutal, weak, silly, unable to be objective about anything where his own interests are involved - that about sums it up. I'm interested in the brutal and violent nature of man because it's a true picture of him. And any attempt to create social institutions on a false view of the nature of man is probably doomed to failure."
Like what? "Well, many aspects of liberal mythology are coming to grief now -- but I don't want to give any examples or I'm going to sound like William Buckley...."
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Fair enough. I never called him a liberal, but I doubt he would call himself a conservative, either. I don't think he was seeking (or, for that matter interested in) labels one way or another. I think he was simply reacting to his time and the world around him.
And, to borrow from another thread where I posted, I would liken countries to families. Everyone is born into one and has it to deal with. Claiming that your family is better than all the others only serves to antagonize. I, for one, don't love America. That doesn't mean I hate it either (which is the clear implication of a certain set of people on this board[Gopher, if that's not clear enough, I AM referring to you]). As such, I don't think Hollywood ( through movies such as Syriana) is "exporting anti-Americanism". If anything, it demonstrates our ability to be critical of ourselves. It is this form of self-criticism that distinguishes America from the other "empires" that came before it. THAT is what is great about America. A kind of self-consciousness that, it seems, some would like to extinguish. And, in our time of "empire", I hope that we serve to improve upon the way power is handled as an example to future "empires".
Do the Chinese pay attention to how we handle our power? I hope so. But, considering at the very least how "anti-Chinese-ism" might be handled in the future, I feel that some of the above posters are overly zealous in their labeling of movies as "anti-American" and what role they play in a world where an overly (and overtly) corrupt White House takes our whole family down the river. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Here is excerpted dialog from an older, run-of-the-mill film, already referenced above. Does this accurately identify and faithfully represent domestic problems and does it merely concern itself with criticism...?
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Nico Toscani: Is that what Zagon is; one of your basement boys?
Nelson Fox: Zagon's a rancher. 4000 acres in Costa Rica. Beautiful place.
Nico Toscani: Beautiful place, huh? And tell me, was that bought with opium money from the triangle?
Nelson Fox: And a ton of coke a week from other places.
Nico Toscani: Which he funnels here through Salvano, The Company getting it's cut, of course.
Nelson Fox: Legal tender.
Nico Toscani: Yeah. So war is still the greatest business, huh Nelson? I mean, these guys have financed & started every war we've ever fought. But you know something, nobody would believe me if I told them the bankers run the C.I.A.
Nelson Fox: Oh, come on Toscani. Don't preach to me.
Nico Toscani: So, the Senator couldn't be bought, could he? He was going to expose your plans to invade Nicaragua, with your fuckin coke money. So The Agency clears Zagon to cap his ass, right?
Nelson Fox: Just keep walking, asshole.
Nico Toscani: So some poor innocent priest finds out; he comes here, but you can't kill the Senator until you find out if the padre has talked. So Zagon comes in with his little doctor bag. Only by then, I'm in on it. And you fuckin know that I'm going to recognize his handiwork.
Nelson Fox: Yeah. And if your name had been Joe Smith, I never would have caught it. But how many Nicolo Toscanis are there?
Nico Toscani: Tell me something old buddy, do we kill our own senators now?
Nelson Fox: Why not? The Romans did.
Nico Toscani: Are we the fucking Romans?
Nelson Fox: We're an empire too. |
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| Nico Toscani: You know something Fox. Right now in Europe they're trying some 80 year-old camp guard for Nazi war crimes. And all around our country they got guys on death row for murdering 1, 2, 3 guys. And they probably deserve what they're going to get. But you & I... we know a couple of people that are personally responsible for the death of what, 50,000 non-military personnel? Librarians, teachers, doctors, women, children. All dead! We've wiped-out entire cultures! And for what? Not one C.I.A. agent has ever been tried, much less accused of any crimes. You guys think you're above the law. Well, you ain't above mine. |
This comes directly from the 1970s: Seymour Hersh's allegations. As already discussed, above, the line from The Good Shepherd derives directly from Chomsky. Go to the source.
And this villifies the American govt. This paints the American govt as the universal enemy, the sole warmaker, the enemy of peace and happiness, the killer of teachers and librarians. In a word, the Great Satan. And as Nico Toscani reminds us: the same or worse than the Nazis.
Some might ask: but is this not so? And I would respond: where did you come by this information if not from Chomsky, Blum, Moore, Stone, et al. and those leftist professors sympathetic to them? Or if not from a decade of the wildly-popular X-Files? How do you know what you believe you know?
For the most, part, then, the antiAmericans have been strikingly successful in shaping perceptions of America and the American govt.
This is not the sole cause of antiAmerican sentiment at home or abroad, by any means. As the near universally-respected historian of American foreign relations William Appleman Williams noted long ago, we have only ourselves to blame for much of it. And we, as much as Soviet Russia, remain responsible for the Cold War and its excesses. But the antiAmericanists and their hate-filled propaganda remain persistent and effective contributors to the overall feedback process nevertheless.
I applaud Intelligence Squared for increasing our awareness of this issue.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody remember Costa-Gavras's Missing? Based on the book that alleged the American govt and particularly Ambassador to Chile Nathaniel Davis had an American citizen killed because he "knew too much" about Pinochet's coup d'etat.
Very popular film. Finds it way in many professors' classrooms in modern Latin-American history courses. And who could forget the ominous and evil, anticommunist zealot Naval Attach�, Captain Ray Towers...?
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U.S. Ambassador: We're not involved, Mr Horman. Our position has been completely nuetral.
Ed Horman: That is a bald face lie, sir. How can you say a thing like that when you have army colonels, you have naval engineers, they're all over Vi�a Del Mar!
U.S. Ambassador: Please sit down. Look, it's very obvious you're harbouring some misconception regarding our role here.
Ed Horman: What is your role here? Besides inducing a regime that murders thousands of human beings?
U.S. Ambassador: Let's level with each other, sir. If you hadn't been personally involved in this unfortunate incident, you'd be sitting at home complacent and more or less oblivious to all of this. This mission is pledged to protect American interests, our interests.
Ed Horman: Well, they're not mine.
U.S. Ambassador: There are over three thousand US firms doing business down here. And those are American interests. In other words, your interests. I am concerned with the preservation of a way of life.
Capt. Ray Tower, USN: And a damned good one.
Ed Horman: [Staring out the window] Maybe that's why there's nobody out there.
U.S. Ambassador: You can't have it both ways.
Capt. Ray Tower, USN: I don't know what happened to your kid, Ed. But I understand he was a bit of a snoop. Poked his nose around in a lot of dangerous places where he didn't really belong. Now, suppose I went up to your town, New York, and I started messing around with the Mafia. I wind up dead in the East River. And my wife or my father complains to the police because they didn't protect me. They really wouldn't have much of a case, would they? You play with fire, you get burned.
Consul Phil Putnam: Listen, Mr Horman, I wish there was something we could say or do.
Ed Horman: Well, there's something I'm going to do. I'm going to sue you, Phil. And Tower and the Ambassador and everybody who let that boy die. We're going to make it so hot for you you'll wish you were stationed in the Antartic.
Consul Phil Putnam: Well, I guess that's your privilege.
Ed Horman: No, that's my right! I just thank God we live in a country where we can still put people like you in jail. |
It is disingenuous to pretend this pattern of political, indeed propagandistic filmmaking does not exist and speak only of Cinderella, Pretty Woman, or Finding Nemo. |
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