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rhinocharge64
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: Grammar question |
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I wonder if anybody could provide me with an answer to the following question.
Example: Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line "is selling" better than expected.
The grammar teacher wants to know why "is sold" is not correct. According to the grammar teacher the rule states we can use a passive verb (is sold) when there is no object. However, in this example we clearly can't. The students, and the grammar teacher are confused regarding this example, when the rule says the opposite.
I have tried to find an answer, and posted a similar question the other day. But since talking to the grammar teacher in more detail, I don't think I asked the right question. To the grammar kings. Can you help please?
Regards, and thanks in advance. |
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Bugmenot
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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"has sold" would work...
Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line has sold better than expected. |
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rhinocharge64
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Any more for any more. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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| rhinocharge64 wrote: |
I wonder if anybody could provide me with an answer to the following question.
Example: Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line "is selling" better than expected.
The grammar teacher wants to know why "is sold" is not correct. According to the grammar teacher the rule states we can use a passive verb (is sold) when there is no object. However, in this example we clearly can't. The students, and the grammar teacher are confused regarding this example, when the rule says the opposite.
I have tried to find an answer, and posted a similar question the other day. But since talking to the grammar teacher in more detail, I don't think I asked the right question. To the grammar kings. Can you help please?
Regards, and thanks in advance. |
It looks like someone is mistaking the present perfect which would take 'have or has' plus the past participle. In that case, it would read:
Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line has sold better than expected.
The problem is that you do not have enough information to tell you what tense you should be using. For example:
Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line is selling better than expected. (present progressive)
Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line has sold better than expected. (present perfect)
Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line has been selling better than expected. (present perfect progressive).
Either form is correct depending on the context in which this sentence appears.
In order to understand the tenses, just remember this:
present progressive - is happening now
present perfect - from one point in time until now
present perfect progressive - used when talking about some point in the past up until now and is still happening now
Therefore, either answer is correct, unless, you have more information to give us such as the paragraph from which this sentence came. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Location: at my wit's end
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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| rhinocharge64 wrote: |
I wonder if anybody could provide me with an answer to the following question.
Example: Retail outlets across the country are indicating that our latest swimwear line "is selling" better than expected.
The grammar teacher wants to know why "is sold" is not correct. According to the grammar teacher the rule states we can use a passive verb (is sold) when there is no object. However, in this example we clearly can't. The students, and the grammar teacher are confused regarding this example, when the rule says the opposite.
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Is sold by whom? There's no agent.
Is selling indicates that the swimwear is continuing to sell (and likely will for the rest of the season).
Has sold indicates that sales figures have dropped off or stopped (perhaps because it is now Fall). |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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To be technical, this is about unaccusativity and the verb 'sell'. Go here for an attempt at making it clear to non-linguists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unaccusative_verb
and its partner page on unergativity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unergative_verb
A simpler way (though technically less accurate) to explain it might be this:
There are really two different verbs 'sell', one transitive, taking a direct object and allowing passivization, and another, intransitive, which does not take a direct object and cannot be passivized. The verb in this sentence is the intransitive variant, which explains why the passive is not allowed. This intransitive verfb regularly collocates with adverbials like 'well', 'badly' and 'like hotcakes'.
A third way to explain this would be in terms of traditional grammar, that 'sell' is a verb that can occur in what is called 'middle voice' - neither active nor passive, but in which an intransitive verb appears to be active but expresses passive meaning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_voice#The_middle_voice
The traditional concept of 'middle voice' has largely been replaced by the ideas of 'unaccusativity' and 'unergativity' in modern linguistic analyses. |
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rhinocharge64
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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cheers to all for your helpful advice, and a special thanks to Woland, whose knowledge never seizes to amaze me.
Regards The Charge  |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Location: at my wit's end
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Woland--
You are brilliant. 
Here's what I'd be interested to hear: how would you explain this to a second language learner?
I'm a teacher and I had to really concentrate to follow what you were saying! |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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woland,
where did you get that answer? It's impressive but to read it makes me sick and I can't really picture some as smart as Faulkner ever being concerned about such things...
Thumbs up to you for the post though |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
| The verb in this sentence is the intransitive variant, which explains why the passive is not allowed. |
With all due respect (and you deserve a lot), if we changed the present progressive in the main clause to simple present, couldn't "is sold" in the sentence conceivably be correct?
'Retail outlets across the country indicate that our latest swimwear line "is sold" better than expected.' That is, couldn't the meaning be, "The swimwear is sold, and it is sold better than expected."?
While it sounds a bit awkward, and I prefer "is selling" or "is being sold," is it grammatically incorrect? |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
woland,
where did you get that answer? It's impressive but to read it makes me sick and I can't really picture some as smart as Faulkner ever being concerned about such things...
Thumbs up to you for the post though |
If I remember correctly, Woland has his Ph.D. in Linguistics. In all honesty, I am waiting for some dimwit to come on here and argue with him about grammar. LOL! The day hasn't come yet, but, I am wishfully hoping!!! |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Woland wrote: |
| The verb in this sentence is the intransitive variant, which explains why the passive is not allowed. |
With all due respect (and you deserve a lot), if we changed the present progressive in the main clause to simple present, couldn't "is sold" in the sentence conceivably be correct?
'Retail outlets across the country indicate that our latest swimwear line "is sold" better than expected.' That is, couldn't the meaning be, "The swimwear is sold, and it is sold better than expected."?
While it sounds a bit awkward, and I prefer "is selling" or "is being sold," is it grammatically incorrect? |
"is sold better" would mean the sales staff do a better job of selling it.
"is selling better" means that more customers are buying it.
I think it comes back to what Woland was saying about there being two senses of the word 'sell'. |
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rhinocharge64
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers to all for an insightful debate. Just goes to show that this forum does have some top class people, and I for one will be eternally grateful.
Cheers and regards. Have a great weekend. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If I remember correctly, Woland has his Ph.D. in Linguistics. In all honesty, I am waiting for some dimwit to come on here and argue with him about grammar. LOL! The day hasn't come yet |
to disagree is not to disrespect....I've got a lot of respect of linguists but Grammarians are a different matter. If you 've ever read any Steven Pinker books you'll understand what I'm getting at.... |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If I remember correctly, Woland has his Ph.D. in Linguistics. In all honesty, I am waiting for some dimwit to come on here and argue with him about grammar. LOL! The day hasn't come yet |
to disagree is not to disrespect....I've got a lot of respect of linguists but Grammarians are a different matter. If you 've ever read any Steven Pinker books you'll understand what I'm getting at.... |
To be clear, Woland seems to use his knowledge to help people find the usage that is most likely to be interpreted "correct" in testing circumstances, and generally takes care to resist prescriptivism. |
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