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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
cbc,
Thanks for the postings. I get a lot of other info. but I'm sure they help a lot of people to keep abreast. So much nonsense but such serious nonsense...
I hope that others can see what has happened and how the Israeli strategy of creating divisiveness but most importantly somehow creating a "proxy" government is working. I get a kick out of all the latest Israeli pronouncements of "optimism" and "our Fatah allies". Such B.S. I wonder why Israel describes Hamas as a terrorist organization whereas Fatah gets a pass? Wasn't Fatah the leader of the intifada, with dozens of suicide bombers and carnage in Israel? Now they appear as allies, what???? Only reasoning is that Israel wants them under their own short leash.
In the long run this will be detrimental and is no way towards peace. I also don't think many people on this discussion board understand the level of support for Hamas (and the same when discussing Hizzbollah) and how the dynamic of a "fighter" plays into people's allegiances.....Israel has to come to terms with that and not step around it by supporting a quasi Palestinian nation which does not enjoy the legitimacy of the population. Period.
DD |
israel is willing talk to fatah because they were the ones willing remove the destruction of israel from the plo charter, they were the ones willing to give up violence, they were the ones willing to talk.
israel didn't create the divisiveness, altho it has tied to benefit from it. the palestinians have always been divided, with religious or policitial factions. their divisiveness also affects those around them. jordan kicked them out because of the threat they presented to jordans stability. lebanon was a stable country until the plo arrived and libya couldn't get rid of them fast enough.
how much suppoort would there be for hamas if they didn't carry guns and threaten those who had a different viewpoint? until hamas and others begin to understand what it actually means to be a nation state, they will continue to lock themselves in this pointless conflict. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Wow! Two good points in a row. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| how much suppoort would there be for hamas if they didn't carry guns and threaten those who had a different viewpoint? until hamas and others begin to understand what it actually means to be a nation state, they will continue to lock themselves in this pointless conflict. |
This is easy to answer. The same as exists at present.
You show you are the emperor withou clothes. It should be common knowledge that Hamas is popular not for its guns and threats -- rather its ability to deliver good governance and also for the consistency of its position and the members which belong to it, who are not corrupt and well educated, respected. On the local level, most Palestinians agree and why they overwhelmingly won local and national elections.
Your point is moot. Fatah doesn't carry big guns and threaten???? Has Fatah recognized Israel at all? NO. No Palestinian political entity has on paper, officially. It would be suicide politically. They have, like Hamas, said that they are prepared to go into negotiations with this on the table and have all but "officially" declared it. Israel chose the weakest one or the one they could most attach "puppet" strings upon. That's what happened.....
I think that in all conflicts, the legitimacy of governments arising from the people, should be supported. It is a tenant of democracy. Why not in this case? And please educate yourself about Fatah. Hamas is no clean dealer but they are respected because they solidly represent Palestinians interest. Internationally but most importantly locally through charity and proper governance...
DD |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Without intending a tit for tat here.
I need to remind the listening public that Hamas took up arms, that would be bullets rather than votes, to take control of the government from the duly elected President.
Seems the majority Hamas block was residing in Gaza, the West bank is solidly Fatah. The West Bank has much more viable territory.
Look for Jordan to intervene diplomatically. My suspicion Isreal will offer complete withdrawal from the West bank with a Jordanian administration of Jerusalem. Hamas will implode. Egypt may do something or they may do nothing. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
You show you are the emperor withou clothes. |
dude you totally need to put more English lit 101 references in your posts... It makes you sound all edamacated.
Anyways,
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Hamas is no clean dealer but they are respected because they solidly represent Palestinians interest. |
Big words. What is the palentinian interest? Genocide? Posted below are portions of the hamas charter.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
I think blood red really brings out the genocidal intentions in that, don't you agree? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: |
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BJWD,
I thank you from refraining from the "douche bag" and assorted other comments. But given the above, I really must say you should be on meds or atleast get a shot of something. Twg was on the right path to label you not a racist but rather a rabid racist.
God forbid the truth of how your poor soul has suffered, to have so much hate in you...
As to your concerns about the 1988 charter (remember that year, what did happen in Palestine that year, I ask?). Rhetoric, inflammatory, revolutionary, a way for a small nation to gather dignity, racist, overly religious, uncompromising. YES, I agree to all this. But the reality as it appears on the ground is different and YES, Israel itself can be accused of all of the above and has been.
Please see this below, from a scholar. Then continue biting and scratching at some invisible bone....
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The Tempest Over the Hamas Charter
By SAREE MAKDISI
The Hamas charter has been the subject of fairly extensive media coverage in recent weeks. A number of newspaper pieces have argued that the charter is unapologetically racist; some have gone even further.
A piece by Daniel Goldhagen in last Sunday�s Los Angeles Times argues, for example, that the charter expresses Hamas� intent to embark on a genocidal program against Israeli Jews. Of course, in literally comparing Hamas to the Nazis, Goldhagen makes it sound as though there�s some titanic military-industrial power standing behind Hamas�s sloganeering, and as though Palestine�s awesome military might�its legions of soldiers, armored and mechanized infantry divisions, flotillas of bombers, and perhaps even a fleet of some kind�stands ready to rain ruin and devastation down on an innocent and practically defenseless Israel.
It�s difficult to determine whether to read a piece like Goldhagen�s as ruthlessly cynical or na�vely childlike (does he really think that Hamas or the Palestinians in general are in a position to embark on a genocidal campaign against the Israelis, even if that�s what they really want, which is at best a doubtful proposition?). Perhaps it�s some strange combination of the two. In any event, it�s certainly an expression of gross ignorance and greatly exaggerated overstatement�and there�s plenty of both around in the US these days when it comes to Hamas, which is why, although Goldhagen�s piece may be particularly lurid in its depiction of Hamas, it�s not entirely unrepresentative of a larger set of trends.
Now, there can be no doubt that the Hamas charter is not only xenophobic, sectarian, and racist, but also ill-conceived, inaccurate, retrograde, and intellectually vacuous.
Nevertheless, the obsessive attention being paid to this document in the US in recent weeks forces one to ask not merely what purposes such an obsession serves, but also what equally (or even more) important issues it elides or covers up.
First, one has to marvel at the interest being paid to the racism of the Hamas charter, given the extraordinary lack of interest here in Israel's own racism, which is executed not merely on paper and in theory but actually, practically, materially.
Israel's Basic Laws, for example, discriminate between Jews and non-Jews in ways that many of those Americans who object most loudly to the mixture of religion and politics strangely don't seem to find objectionable.
And Israel's unique existence as a country that expressly claims to be not the state of its actual citizens but rather of a globally dispersed people manifestly privileges the (non-Israeli) Jews of New York and Chicago over Israel's actually existing non-Jewish citizens. Although they amount to some twenty percent of the state's population, the latter are literally written into second class status by virtue of their non-Jewishness in what loudly proclaims itself to be the Jewish state.
Members of this Palestinian minority are stigmatized for their non-Jewishness not because they willfully chose to live in a Jewish state that pre-existed them. Rather, they are the remnant of the bulk of Palestine's original non-Jewish population, which was terrorized from its land and homes before, during and after the creation of Israel in 1948. Their expulsion was expressly called for as early as the 1930s by Israel's founding fathers precisely in order for Israel to become a Jewish state in the first place. "A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians," the Israeli historian Benny Morris points out, echoing the logic of David Ben Gurion; "therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads."
Israeli planning in the territories that it forcibly occupied in 1967 includes ethnically-defined forms of control that have generated, among other things, the current grotesque situation in Hebron, whose population of some 400 Jewish settlers�nestled in Hebron illegally�absolutely dominates a city of 130,000 indigenous Palestinians. Palestinian Hebron has been driven to the edge of destruction�shops sealed shut, whole neighborhoods evacuated, commerce crippled, families forcibly evicted�in order that a tiny group of fanatics can live out its private religious fantasy.
Moreover, Israeli policy seeks to maintain the population of Jerusalem in a ratio of 72 percent Jews to 28 percent "non-Jews" (i.e., Palestinians). Again, this startlingly racist objective exists not merely on a scrap of paper, but as the actual foundation for policies affecting literally hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis. It is the foundation for issuing (or denying) building permits and residency documents; for implanting illegal colonies and settlements; for harassing an entire community; for breaking up families; for denying human beings access to the city in which they were born, which happens every time a Palestinian Jerusalemite is barred from entering Jerusalem�in other words, every single day.
How come we hear so much about the toothless Hamas charter (no matter how vile it is), and so little about Israel's planning in Jerusalem? What do all those people who have so sanctimoniously seized the moral high ground in denouncing the nominal racism of Hamas have to say about the actual racism of Israel? Where are the voices clamoring for withholding US support for Israel because of its relentless violence against an entire people simply because it is not Jewish?
Surely the intelligent approach to the discussion of the Hamas charter is to say that racism is racism, and that both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict�not just, and not always, the Palestinians, should be pressured to move beyond racist archaisms that are unworthy of the twenty-first century, and to do so not merely in terms of their rhetoric, but in their actual policies, regulations, politics, and laws.
In the meantime, we would do well to recognize the difference between a racist ideology backed up by little more than thin air, and one backed up by the full force of a nuclear-armed state with the tanks, the planes, and the soldiers to impose its will on another people�as it has chosen to do for decades on end.
Saree Makdisi is a Professor of English and Comparative Literature at UCLA |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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In other words, they don't mean it but don't change it. Which begs the question.... Why. Don't. They. Change. It. ?
And another question too. How far will douchbags go in their support for this? Apparently saying you want to kill all the Jews is ok in your eyes. How about doing it? Half? 20%? At what point would you find it in your naive mind to accept that, sometimes, a genocidal spade is a genocidal spade?
Hmm?
by the way, eh, islam isn't a race but a supremacist ideology. You might do well to remember that when allowing yourself to fall in love with their propaganda.
Again. What are the pal's interests and how does hamas represent them? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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I like that the article reckognized the racism of both side in this conflict.
"Surely the intelligent approach to the discussion of the Hamas charter is to say that racism is racism, and that both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict�not just, and not always, the Palestinians, should be pressured to move beyond racist archaisms that are unworthy of the twenty-first century, and to do so not merely in terms of their rhetoric, but in their actual policies, regulations, politics, and laws. "
But, I don't buy the arguement that this is not a conflict over territory.
The problem in the end is that Hamas wants the Jews gone.
The Isrealis seem willing to accept the Palestinian state and soveriegnty of it's territories.
They are definately taking advantage of some recent intelligence finds, with some exceptional surgical strikes, probably Fatah giving up some secrets. |
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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| how much suppoort would there be for hamas if they didn't carry guns and threaten those who had a different viewpoint? until hamas and others begin to understand what it actually means to be a nation state, they will continue to lock themselves in this pointless conflict. |
This is easy to answer. The same as exists at present.
You show you are the emperor withou clothes. It should be common knowledge that Hamas is popular not for its guns and threats -- rather its ability to deliver good governance and also for the consistency of its position and the members which belong to it, who are not corrupt and well educated, respected. On the local level, most Palestinians agree and why they overwhelmingly won local and national elections.
Your point is moot. Fatah doesn't carry big guns and threaten???? Has Fatah recognized Israel at all? NO. No Palestinian political entity has on paper, officially. It would be suicide politically. They have, like Hamas, said that they are prepared to go into negotiations with this on the table and have all but "officially" declared it. Israel chose the weakest one or the one they could most attach "puppet" strings upon. That's what happened.....
I think that in all conflicts, the legitimacy of governments arising from the people, should be supported. It is a tenant of democracy. Why not in this case? And please educate yourself about Fatah. Hamas is no clean dealer but they are respected because they solidly represent Palestinians interest. Internationally but most importantly locally through charity and proper governance...
DD |
if hamas is so well respected why are so many palestinians trying to leave gaza? why can hamas not control its own militia? why are hamas gunmen shooting fellow palestinians?
until hamas can lay down its weapons it can not be said to enjoy the support of the people without coercion. using your logic you could argue the sadaam was well respected by his people that is why he won his elections so overwhelming.
my point is not moot, i said if hamas and others (this includes fatah and the other numerous factions). although it would seem that fatah is further along this path than others.
"the legitimacy of governments", glad you raised that point. what legitimate government holds hostages? hamas still holds an israeli hostage as a bargaining chip. a legitimate government, wasn't fatah was part of it until the hamas coup. hamas doesn't recognise democracy.
when egypt entered into peace negotiations with israel they got what they wanted and so did israel. yes sadat was killed and rabin was later killed for pursuing negotiations with the palestinains. these were men brave enough to face political suicide, better men than those who send child suicide bombers to continue the bloodshed. |
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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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BTW, hamas was a minority government as it only represented 44% of the voters (and probably an even a lower percentage of the total population) :
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| In addition, factionalism within the ruling party led a number of districts to have competing Fatah candidates. As a result, even though Hamas only received 44% of the vote, they captured a majority of Parliament and the right to select the prime minister and form a new government. |
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IF30Ak04.html |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| if hamas is so well respected why are so many palestinians trying to leave gaza? why can hamas not control its own militia? why are hamas gunmen shooting fellow palestinians? |
Same can be said about Fatah. Just that we don't hear too much about it. This was a tit for tat thing and you are wrong for solely vilifying Hamas on this count.
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| "the legitimacy of governments", glad you raised that point. what legitimate government holds hostages? hamas still holds an israeli hostage as a bargaining chip. a legitimate government, wasn't fatah was part of it until the hamas coup. hamas doesn't recognise democracy. |
And what of all the hostages, the thousands in Israeli prisons? They are not criminals, they are political prisoners and have been recognized as such by international organizations. "Political prisoners" not charged and just another term for "hostage". So what is your point? Again, I don't condone this but stop vilifying without looking at the dynamics and the other sides equal barbarity.
| Quote: |
| when egypt entered into peace negotiations with israel they got what they wanted and so did israel. yes sadat was killed and rabin was later killed for pursuing negotiations with the palestinains. these were men brave enough to face political suicide, better men than those who send child suicide bombers to continue the bloodshed. |
I won't enter into an arguement whether Sadat was a brave man or not. I must say though, he certainly was a "rich" man and that you are overstating tired logic in saying he was killed for signing the Camp David accords (or is that what you are saying? please clarify?). Sadat was killed by Egyptians who were using Fatwa as a political tool - basically as a means of rallying people against the abuses of Sadat's brutal regime and in particular the very glaring inequalities. He brutally repressed political expression and especially the Brotherhood and paid the price for crossing this line. It was not because of his making peace with Israel.
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| better men than those who send child suicide bombers to continue the bloodshed. |
I'm not so certain. I judge these "political" men differently, knowing history. Also, was not Fatah the organization which primarily sent suicide bombers after Israeli targets? Don't you know that?
Please inform yourself of how Force 17 fanatics control the hand of Abu Mazen and of their own brutality and assassination and violence.
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| BTW, hamas was a minority government as it only represented 44% of the voters (and probably an even a lower percentage of the total population) : |
Maybe true but that is simply how politics works everywhere. You can't say they were a "majority" government. In most countries of the world, 44% is more than enough to declare legitimacy and a mandate.
You also didn't mention how Fatah postponed (illegally) scheduled elections in 2004-2005, fearful of losing power totally (democratically) such were they vilified as incompetent on the street. Nor Fatah's refusal to work constructively in the new government and then the president using dictatorial powers to oust a democratically (by the people) elected P.M. , Haniyeh. (legally he could disband the govt for 30 days "emergency" but his decree went much further than that.....
Here is a quote from a guy I respect, on the ground....
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He said that he has called many times for an international presence and protection for the Palestinians, but not only in Gaza.
"But the idea has always been rejected by Israel," Barghouti said.
His calls were more for a civilian international presence, but Barghouti didn't raise any objections today to a military force.
Asked if Hamas has gone into hiding in the West Bank, Barghouti replied, "I see some everywhere."
"Look, the problem here is that we are under a military occupation. The sad thing is that this fight is for a Palestinian Authority that does not have any authority ... and Gaza is a big prison." |
This sums up the whole situation. ..... there is NO control in Gaza or the West Bank. Only the control Israel allows.
Here is a very good report with recommendations by an international think tank. I think it has very well appraised the situation.
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3886
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The record of the last several months, as Hamas rubbed elbows with issues of local governance and campaigned for national office, offers a preliminary, mixed picture of how political integration might affect its outlook and conduct. In its pragmatism, and even willingness to deal with Israel on day-to-day operational affairs, Hamas rule at the local level has been almost boringly similar to its predecessor. Local politicians emphasise themes of good governance, economic development, and personal and social security, leaving specifically religious issues and the conflict with Israel to the background. With only scant exceptions, they have yet to try to impose their vision of an Islamist society.
Nationally, too, signs of pragmatism can be detected. Far more than Fatah, Hamas has proved a disciplined adherent to the ceasefire, and Israeli military officers readily credit this for the sharp decline in violence. In recent statements, Hamas leaders have not ruled out changing their movement�s charter, negotiating with Israel, or accepting a long-term truce on the basis of an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 lines. Today, their electoral platform is in these respects closer to Fatah�s outlook than to Hamas�s founding principles. |
DD |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Point of Information:
Force 17 was crucial for decades in preventing PLO and Fatah chieftains from usurping Arafat's power, and today it plays the same role for Abu Mazen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_17 |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Al-Aqsa Martyrs commander shot dead
Israeli soldiers have shot dead a local comander of a Palestinian armed group linked to the Fatah faction of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, in the West Bank.
Mohammed Abu el-Heija of the the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades was killed in the gunfight in the Jenin refugee camp, Palestinian security sources said on Monday.
"A Fatah member opened fire on soldiers conducting a routine operation in Jenin, and they returned fire and killed him, wounding another armed Palestinian," an Israeli military spokeswoman said.
She said the Palestinian was armed with a M16 assault rifle with a telescope.
"During the incident, an explosive charge was thrown and the Israeli force came under fire," she said.
Palestinians said al-Heija was considered to be close to Zakariya Zubeidi, a high-profile al-Aqsa leader in the camp who has long been on the Israeli army's wanted list.
"We, at al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, will continue to defend the Palestinian people until the last drop of our blood," Zubeidi told Al Jazeera.
Israel has indicated that it will continue to pursue Palestinian fighters in the West Bank despite pledging to support Abbas and the new emergency government which effectively only controls that territory.
Salam Fayyad, the Palestinian prime minister in the cabinet appointed after Hamas took full control of the Gaza Strip, has said Israeli raids undermine the Fatah's intention to disarm groups in the West Bank.
Israel has conducted several raids around the West Bank town of Nablus over the past two days targeting fighters from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BC6A7D9F-C69E-45A3-A58A-1CF24A02A774.htm |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Jordanian role increasingly seen as crucial to peace process
There are increasing signs, slowly but unmistakably, that the Jordanian option for solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is once more assuming a central position on the agenda. Not necessarily along its original 'Jordan is Palestine' formula, but in a more sophisticated composition: Jordanian assistance to the Palestinians, the possibility of a confederation. This is no longer the preserve of people on the extreme right or of neo-conservatives, who have never supported the idea of creating a Palestinian state. These ideas are also being considered by more mainstream groups. Even more surprising, there are many senior Fatah members, exasperated with the likelihood that the Oslo process will yet yield results, who are also looking for a way out of the impasse.
A Palestinian source close to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas told Haaretz that he 'was not frightened' by these ideas. However, he also clarified that 'this is a sensitive matter. Of course, it is difficult to address it publicly.' In any case, at this stage, talks about the Jordanian option are held in unofficial channels and in secret.'
The Bush administration is committed to an agenda of a two state solution, which now focuses on bolstering Abbas and his regime in the West Bank. Israeli sources have said that the Jordanian question has not been raised in official talks held with American officials during recent months. However, some senior administration officials have begun to ask: What would happen if the current strategy proves to be unproductive?
Meanwhile, a caustic response to the idea of such a solution came from King Abdullah of Jordan who said Sunday during an interview that 'we reject the formula of confederation and federation and we believe that proposing this issue at this specific point in time is a conspiracy against both Palestine and Jordan.' The King added that he was 'fed up talking about this issue.'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/877719.html |
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