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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Unbelievable. "Concealing Saddam's ties to terrorism," "extensive terrorism activities," "nation with a record of terrorism," "Iraq continued to cooperate with terrorists," "poison gas," "gas attacks," "nuclear weapons program," "weapons of mass destruction," "advanced weapons of mass destruction," "global procurement network." |
I find it distasteful to use sound bite quotes to misconstrue what Gore said. Is there a question as to whether Saddam supported terrorism? It is known he did not support AL Queda. Is your intent to obfuscate and confuse the two? Is there any question about his use of gas vs. his own citizens? No. Is there any doubt Saddam wanted WMDs and nuclear arms? No. Have any of the little sound bites you used to imply.... whatever... been the issue? No.
The issue with Iraq AS IT APPLIES TO CURRENT EVENTS is that there were no WMDs nor a viable nuclear program at the time the current war started.
Gore's point is simple: Reagan/Bush armed and abetted Saddam...
until he threatened the stability of the oil well of the planet. (<-- last mine.)
...and he was absolutely correct. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Excellent Rant From Keith Olberman |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
It's an excerpt. Click the link to read the whole thing.
Olbermann: Bush, Cheney should resign
I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war.
I accuse you of fabricating in the minds of your own people, a false implied link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.
I accuse you of firing the generals who told you that the plans for Iraq were disastrously insufficient.
I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors.
I accuse you of subverting the Constitution, not in some misguided but sincerely-motivated struggle to combat terrorists, but to stifle dissent.
I accuse you of fomenting fear among your own people, of creating the very terror you claim to have fought.
If justice exists in America, impeachment is the next word on our lips. |
Hard to imagine getting any closer without it happening... but after watching the Dems for the last six months, I have little faith anything substantive will occur.
Were I a politician of any significance, I would call for a general strike until impeachment proceedings had begun and the shut down of the Iraq invasion was underway.
Drastic? Yes. But without the rule of law, we are nothing but another powerful nation doing what other powerful nations have done: abusing the power we have.
Perspective on the Republican reaction:
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(July 04, 2007 -- 07:31 PM EDT)
Mitt Romney comes down from the mountaintop of his primordial phoneyhood to reveal himself as an abysmal hypocrite.
Romney says the Libby pardon was "reasonable" but ...
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As governor, Romney twice rejected a pardon for Anthony Circosta, who at age 13 was convicted of assault for shooting another boy in the arm with a BB gun - a shot that didn't break the skin. Circosta worked his way through college, joined the Army National Guard and led a platoon of 20 soldiers in Iraq's deadly Sunni triangle.
In 2005, as he was serving in Iraq, he sought a pardon to fulfill his dream of becoming a police officer.
In his presidential bid, Romney often proudly points out that he was the first governor in modern Massachusetts history to deny every request for a pardon or commutation during his four years in office. He says he refused pardons because he didn't want to overturn a jury.
During the four years Romney was in office, 100 requests for commutations and 172 requests for pardons were filed in the state. All were denied. |
-- Josh Marshall |
TPM
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| How about by leaving them alone, finding something else to put in our cars and leaving them to go to hell in whatever they choose? |
I am more in favor of alternative energy as much as anyone else here but they won't leave the US alone and that is the problem.
Which demands of Al Qaeda / Iran ought the US give in to?
Ought the US not vote the way it wants at the UN cause the US is afraid of them?
Ought the US not trade and have diplomatic relations Al Qaeda & Iran don't like cause the US is afraid of them.
Al Qaedism , Khomenism and Bathism are offensive movements. They can not be appeased away. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| How about by leaving them alone, finding something else to put in our cars and leaving them to go to hell in whatever they choose? |
I am more in favor of alternative energy as much as anyone else here but they won't leave the US alone and that is the problem.
Which demands of Al Qaeda / Iran ought the US give in to?
Ought the US not vote the way it wants at the UN cause the US is afraid of them?
Ought the US not trade and have diplomatic relations Al Qaeda & Iran don't like cause the US is afraid of them.
Al Qaedism , Khomenism and Bathism are offensive movements. They can not be appeased away. |
They needed not be appeased away. But a direct offensive assault on the US' part, coupled with a desultory understanding of urban and insurgent tactics, was completely wrong. That's the wrong way to fight these groups. There are (or were) cracks all over the Middle East and their failing "nation-states"; the Iraqi invasion has served as mortar for the time being, to the tune of $500 billion and tens of thousands dead and maimed. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
They shot at US planes that were flying over Iraq.  |
Hey...what's wrong with you? Haven't you ever heard of American exceptionalism? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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The Bobster wrote:
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| How about by leaving them alone, finding something else to put in our cars and leaving them to go to hell in whatever they choose? |
Spoken like an isolationist; that might have worked in 1907 but not in 2007.
Petroleum products aren't only used in cars as you well know. It is far easier said than done and the transition period would last for many years.
Meanwhile, back in the Land of Insistent Reality, Bobster, the Middle East would have continued to fester. Even if Iraq had not been invaded, it would have done nothing to prevent the Syrian subversion of Lebanon, the Iranian-supplied Hamas revolt in Gaza and elsewhere.
While we now know that intelligence on Iraqi WMD's was seriously flawed, we also did not know the extent of their development. Indeed, he might have played the puff fish as a delaying tactic for further action against his regime while continuing to pursue the development of WMD's. Clearly he was not of a mind to comply with U.N. sanctions.
Of course, if you fervently believe, as all leftists on this board do, that the Bush Administration knew there were no WMDs and deliberately misled the American people, then we have no basis for discussion.
On the other hand, if they acted in good faith and were misguided by the intelligence, both Bush and Blair had a responsibility to err on the side of caution by assuming Saddam had such weapons, or was about to have such weapons and would use them when he did.
And how convenient for us in any case to adopt your rash view, Bobster, to retreat from the region altogether and leave Israel to fend for itself against state-sponsored terrorism. Of course, then we would have been faulted for washing our hands of the matter, ad nauseum.
Last edited by stevemcgarrett on Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
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| How about by leaving them alone...? |
Spoken like an isolationist... |
Not isolationism but rather extreme na�vet�. He seems to embrace the simplistic idea that world affairs can be reduced to our not leaving "the rest of the world" alone. Next he might ask "What if they threw a war and nobody came?"
However that may be, we are bullies in his view, not internationalists, Mcgarrett. This is the standard William Blum/Chalmers Johnson/Ron Paul line. But for American foreign policy "the rest of the world" would live as if God had never expelled Adam from the Garden...
Nonsense. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher wrote:
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| Not isolationism but rather extreme na�vet�. |
You just saved me the trouble of saying it bluntly. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Of course, if you fervently believe, as all leftists on this board do, that the Bush Administration knew there were no WMDs and deliberately misled the American people, then we have no basis for discussion. |
First, not all "leftists" believe the same things. So you are wrong.
Second, when you say "leftists," we can be pretty sure you REALLY mean "people who hate America." So you are wrong.
Third, there was no "flawed intelligence," and that's because there was no intelligence. It was Bush who forced the UN weapons inspectors to leave the country, not Saddam. Last thing the neocons wanted was for Iraq to be declared free of WMDs. So you are wrong.
It was ALL a freaking lie, nothing close to "good faith" anywhere involved. You KNOW that. EVERYone knows that. It has been shown time and time again, and you continue to rely on the old canard that people who oppose the war really hate America or want impose socialism or some stupid crap like that.
It is SO boring to listen to the same garbage year after year, garbage that has been proved many times to be exactly what it is. God knows, I'm wrong about plenty of stuff, but all the years I've argued in CE about this war, just about everything I was saying about it has turned out to be true.
It is bad for America. If we love America, we need to end this thing. End it now.
Some of you guys need to get your game on, figure out what's real and true in the world. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Third, there was no "flawed intelligence," and that's because there was no intelligence. It was Bush who forced the UN weapons inspectors to leave the country, not Saddam. Last thing the neocons wanted was for Iraq to be declared free of WMDs. So you are wrong. |
Saddam wanted the weapons inspectors out too. He didn't let them back in until there were 150,000 US and 25,000 UK troops in his face. And when they left he was going to kick the inspectors out again.
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| It is bad for America. If we love America, we need to end this thing. End it now. |
We need to end this thing but only after the Bathists , the Khomeni followers and the Al Qaedists give up their war.
You can't expect the US just to accept their war
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| Some of you guys need to get your game on, figure out what's real and true in the world. |
what is true is that AQ fights for the Caliphate and the Khomeni followers have been out to get the US. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
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what is true is that AQ fights for the Caliphate and the Khomeni followers have been out to get the US. |
That's true. There's probably Tajik groups longing for the days of the Il-Khan empire and Ghanans who miss Songhay and Dahomey. So what? There's a difference between rhetoric and feasible results. Anyone who truly believes that AQ actually ever has a shot at establishing a Caliphate has no business discussing current events. Their terror tactics are certainly not to be ignored or dismissed, but I doubt even most of AQ's higher ups truly believe this crap about Caliphate, but it's a good way to recruit disaffected fundies. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Bobster replied:
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| It was ALL a freaking lie, nothing close to "good faith" anywhere involved. You KNOW that. EVERYone knows that. |
No, my little man, I don't know that, and you cannot prove it either, which was part of my point.
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| It has been shown time and time again, and you continue to rely on the old canard that people who oppose the war really hate America or want impose socialism or some stupid crap like that. |
Show me where I said or implied this in my previous post. I'm waiting with bated breath.
Leftists get unhinged at the very mention of Bush and Cheney.
Joo replied:
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| Saddam wanted the weapons inspectors out too. He didn't let them back in until there were 150,000 US and 25,000 UK troops in his face. And when they left he was going to kick the inspectors out again. |
Precisely the case but don't confuse The Bobster with the facts. He's got enough on his hands just writing a lucid, cogent post.
jkelly wrote:
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| Anyone who truly believes that AQ actually ever has a shot at establishing a Caliphate has no business discussing current events |
And anyone who doesn't think Iran and Syria are just waiting to jump into the breach should the U.S. pull out now should be forced to stick his pipe where the sun don't shine, as they say. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Liberals hate freedom! You p1ss in the skulls of dead kids!
Conservatives hate everyone! You eat the spleens of kittens!
Last edited by jaganath69 on Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| How about by leaving them alone, finding something else to put in our cars and leaving them to go to hell in whatever they choose? |
That is just crazy talk. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
It was ALL a freaking lie |
That is crazy talk. |
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