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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:50 am Post subject: |
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From my sig today!
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�An apology for the devil: it must be remembered that we have heard only one side of the case; God has written all the books.�
-- Samuel Butler (1835-1902), English satiricist. Dictionary of Humorous Quotations edited by Evan Esar |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
From my sig today!
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�An apology for the devil: it must be remembered that we have heard only one side of the case; God has written all the books.�
-- Samuel Butler (1835-1902), English satiricist. Dictionary of Humorous Quotations edited by Evan Esar |
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I beg to differ. It wasn't God who wrote Harry Potter. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| Qinella wrote: |
One bit I will contribute is that the Hebrews were a culture that worshipped and idolized war. As such, they were often at war with neighboring tribes. |
there is a lot in your post but i'll just comment on this bit. Huh?
they were not unlike any other culture of the time. |
Well, that isn't necessarily true, though it is for the most part. There is some evidence of at least one culture which did not even know about the concept of war. The evidence is that there is plenty of archeological data about the culture, but absolutely none of it appears to be a weapon, or art about fighting.
Please note that I did not say the Hebrews were any different from their neighbors, so your objection strikes me as odd.
Also, mentioned in Ide's book about Moses is that the Hebrews often literally worshipped idols that represented war, which is why the clerics were so often harping about that particular 'sin'. I think there is also evidence in the way some people were named. Too bad I don't have my book for reference now, as this information is not readily available on the internet, and it's been years since I studied it so I've lost the details. If you're really interested, buy the Ide book I referenced in my first post.
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| assyrian, egyptian, babylonian,persian etc cultures all recorded their victories and put spin on them as well as their losses. yes there were wars but did not they always start them. and the bible doesn't go into great detail about the periods of peace. bit like the news reporting today, you hear the bad stuff but no one leads with "It was another uneventful peaceful day as usual in (where ever), the 1650th in a row". |
That's all fine, and admirable in some ways and certainly unique, but completely irrelevant to what I was getting at. I even specifically stated that the important thing to note is not the barbarism. That was not my point, and I directly said so.
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| oh the snake was also a good thing. Moses held up the two snakes on a stick to cure all those who looked upon it. later christain theology made the snake into a representation of evil/satan. |
True. But also remember the serpent from the garden. And the fact that the Torah was written by Moses. It's confusing. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
That site has such a consistently smug and condescending tone, and even resorts to name-calling. For example, they've often referred to author Acharya S as "Achy." There's scholarship there, sure, but its patronising style is a real turn off. If they want to be taken seriously, they should first stop writing in such a vindictive, immature manner.
And like some posters here, they pick and choose which points they want to try to refute, usually the easier ones, and ignoring others. |
Nah.. I can't agree with you at all. I used to, though. That was before I'd had several one-on-one discussions with JP Holding.
He does mock people, but only those who he sees as deserving. For example, some dork who thinks that linking to the Skeptics' Annotated Bible is a proper response during a debate, or someone who tries to capitalize on modern emotional response to contextually normal events such as massacre. Under Holding's understanding of the honor/shame duality that dominated society in much of the ANE, public shame and mocking is not only acceptable, but expected of a righteous figure.
There are many examples to support this, even in the way Jesus himself is said to have spoken.
I've had a lot of discussions with him and he only once resorted to attempting to shame me, which was because I was leaning too much on technicalities and semantics rather than getting directly to the point. I didn't cry myself to sleep over it, but simply used his attacks for exactly what they are intended to be: an agape-driven call to personal improvement.
If you write off Holding because you don't understand his style (i.e. you try to interpret his reenactment of ANE exchange style through a modern, individualist lense), it's a huge loss for you, assuming you care about contextual research. He's a major player in that game. |
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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the thing. First century Christianity was basically a doomsday cult. The world was coming to an end in a matter of years. Virtually every book of the new testament talks about their generation as being the last. The world was in its very last days."There are some among you who will not have tasted death before the Son of Man returns in the clouds." Oops! Paul on one occasion even told people to avoid getting married. Spend your time preparing yourself for the imminent return of Jesus. It's been two thousand years people. Christianity has to be the longest surviving doomsday cult in history.
Kind of reminds me of those doomday cult members a few years ago. The Railians or something. They gave up all their possessions in the belief that aliens were returning to earth to purify it. Like Jesus, the aliens failed to appear. |
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Rapacious Mr. Batstove
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: Central Areola
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| philipjames wrote: |
Here's the thing. First century Christianity was basically a doomsday cult. The world was coming to an end in a matter of years. Virtually every book of the new testament talks about their generation as being the last. The world was in its very last days."There are some among you who will not have tasted death before the Son of Man returns in the clouds." Oops! Paul on one occasion even told people to avoid getting married. Spend your time preparing yourself for the imminent return of Jesus. It's been two thousand years people. Christianity has to be the longest surviving doomsday cult in history.
Kind of reminds me of those doomday cult members a few years ago. The Railians or something. They gave up all their possessions in the belief that aliens were returning to earth to purify it. Like Jesus, the aliens failed to appear. |
It was the Heaven's Gate cult clan. They believed that Jesus was riding in a spaceship which was obscured by a comet traveling close to Earth.
They believed their bodies were only vehicles and would transcend their Earthly bodies to be with Jesus. 38 members committed suicide by drinking vodka laced with phenobarbital and finished each other off by suffocating each other with plastic bags.
What's the moral of the heaven's gate legacy I wonder?
If you're going to lie, make it a whopper?
Go out with a bang.
I hope they made the Darwin Awards. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| For a more thorough discussion about getting up to the comet flying saucer, go over to SeoulUnitarian's thread on "Communing with aliens." |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
so are saying there is a god who all did this and that the bible is an accurate record of events?
writings from other cultures contain similar information. our god(s) told us to do this in this way etc. in this aspect the bible is not unique and yes it is a sign of the times, something all cultures engaged in.
if you seriously want to critique the bible you have to put it in context.
for example:
were the commandments the given to moses the only ones given from god to man? no, sumerian scripture, which pre-dates hebrew scripture, has this myth. The hebrew scripture and laws have many similarities with the sumerian ones. and was probably the origin of most of the genesis mythical material too. esp. considering abraham is said to have lived in ur, the main sumerian city. |
Aren't there two sets of Ten Commandments in the Bible even?
I find it a little weird that God visited the Israelites and gave them tactical data to help them win wars. And then after a time he stopped giving that sort of information. I'm sure there is archaeological evidence of a lot of these battles and massacres. Chances are the Israelites were just very successful warriors for a while and they attributed their successes to God. Probably every culture has done the same. It doesn't hurt to point out that Yahweh was originally the god of war in the Hebrew pantheon. |
God is a god of justice and wars against injustice. He used the tribe of Israel as a sign onto the world and raised them up to slaughter the nations that were wicked. God could have used anyone, but it so happened to be the Jews.
There is a lot of archaelogical evidence and it clearly reveals that the "myths" of the bible actually happened. The more they find, the more it shows that the bible is in fact a true guide to understanding.
Interesting to note, that most of these types of threads are usually on "Christianity". To me that is another indicator that Christianity has the answers for salvation. I can understand why, because so much is at stake. |
Some legends are based on real events...doesn't make them any less fictitious, though. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| nobbyken wrote: |
The Old Testament should be looked at through the New Testament.
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why?
the NT was written by greeks who didn't really understand jewish scripture, customs etc. so they misinterpret and misquote jewish scripture, not to mention they throw in greek philosophy.
no wonder so many are confused about religion! |
That's weird, isn't it? You'd think that the biographies of an Aramaic-speaking Jew who was executed in Roman-controlled Palestine would be written in Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, Coptic, or Syriac. But no, it was written in, of all languages, in its original form, Greek.
It's one more piece of evidence suggesting that a lot of what's in the Gospels comes from Hellenic culture. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| philipjames wrote: |
Here's the thing. First century Christianity was basically a doomsday cult. The world was coming to an end in a matter of years. Virtually every book of the new testament talks about their generation as being the last. The world was in its very last days."There are some among you who will not have tasted death before the Son of Man returns in the clouds." Oops! Paul on one occasion even told people to avoid getting married. Spend your time preparing yourself for the imminent return of Jesus. It's been two thousand years people. Christianity has to be the longest surviving doomsday cult in history.
Kind of reminds me of those doomday cult members a few years ago. The Railians or something. They gave up all their possessions in the belief that aliens were returning to earth to purify it. Like Jesus, the aliens failed to appear. |
That or the leaders of doomsday cults corrupted and adapted the story of the second coming in order to achieve their own lascivious goals. |
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Bingo
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes I feel a bit guilty about picking on Christians. It's just too easy. It's like picking on George Bush. After a while you start feeling a bit embarrassed. Like picking on the really stupid or misinformed kid in class. But Christians on this board aren't kids, they're adults. And adults shouldn't be believing in absurdities. We're in the third millenium. There's a massive, incredible amount of things we don't know about life. There is no shame in saying 'I don't know.' But when Christians come up to you on the subway and say 'I know the answers' and their answers include a 5000 year old earth, a talking snake, a god who has a kid, people getting up from the dead, demons, war gods, etc...you rightly get pissed off.
We are on a serious search for the origins and nature of the universe. Christians offer nothing to the discussion. Yet they are the ones bothering us on our lunch breaks with stories about a dude who lived inside a whale, another bloke who lived for 310 years, and a chick who had a kid (fathered by a ghost) while still a virgin.
I think people have a right to ridicule Christianity. It's jst a little bit too easy.  |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well eat me.
Eat my body, drink my blood.
What kind of sick crap is that. |
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Gamecock
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting to note, that most of these types of threads are usually on "Christianity". To me that is another indicator that Christianity has the answers for salvation. |
Or, OR, Christianity is the predominate religion in Western culture and the one most of us have to deal with on a daily basis. Their evangelists are constantly in our face, either in condescending kindness or hellfire condemnation. It's near imporssible to have a rational discussion with them. In my country, they are doing their damdest to impose their archaic beliefs as the law of the land, while at the same time whining that as the majority they are being "persecuted." 
But if it feeds your delusion to believe these threads prove you have the answers for salvation...have at it. |
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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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The bible.
page 1. A god creates the world in six days, then needs to REST!!!! What did he do? Take a nap? What kind of all-powerful deity needs to take time off? And why did it take him so long to create the world. Surely six seconds should have been sufficient.
page 2. Talking snake
page 3: Adan and Eves' two children - both males - reproduce and have kids. Where the heck did they find their wives?
page 4.
Anyone who gets to page four and still thinks they are reading about factual events needs their head examined. If they get to page 810 and believes everything they've read on all those pages - dudes living inside a whale, dragons, giants, etc. - they need to be locked up in a nut house. At the very least they should be denied the right to vote. People that crazy should have no role in the future governance of nations. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe the topic name should be changed to "Athiest Love Fest" as you all seem to love bringing this topic up every month or two.
Just an innocent question "why do athiests feel the need to re-educate christians?", "why can't you just go on with your lives and ignore the christians if you don't like them?" |
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