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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: Governments deny reported death toll figures on Iraq |
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http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56124/
The most disturbing thing for me was the part about how more Iraqi's have died in this war than Saddam killed in 25 years. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Sartori wrote:
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| The most disturbing thing for me was the part about how more Iraqi's have died in this war than Saddam killed in 25 years. |
When you get done meditating on lotus flowers and the incense from joss sticks, step off your pedestal long enough to look out the window, so to speak.
ONE OF THE BIGGEST MYTHS PERPETUATED BY THE LEFT AND ITS PACIFIST ENABLERS IS THAT NONE OF THIS BLOODSHED WOULD HAVE OCCURRED WERE SADDAM LEFT ALONE IN POWER.
BUT THE INESCAPABLE REALITY IS THAT SADDAM'S REGIME WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO EXPLOIT THE PEOPLE AND AFTER ITS EVENTUAL FALL THE BAATHISTS WOULD HAVE HAD THEIR BLOODBATH WITH THE SHI'AS, ONLY IT WOULD HAVE ALSO INCLUDED THE KURDS. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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The opposition's probable exaggerated claims are no more reliable than our govt's probable downplayed claims.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher, Lancet is not "the opposition", they are one of the most respected teams that do this body count work. In fact both the Brittish and American governments have used them before to get this kind of information. Now that they don't like the figures they suddenly say it was flawed science. That just doesn't add up. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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During a shooting war? Sorry. The best thing to be said about it is "premature" and "unreliable."
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| They visited a random set of homes and asked the residents if anyone in their household had died in the last few years... |
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Governments deny reported death toll figures on Iraq |
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| Satori wrote: |
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56124/
The most disturbing thing for me was the part about how more Iraqi's have died in this war than Saddam killed in 25 years. |
It's only bad when other people do it |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Governments deny reported death toll figures on Iraq |
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| Satori wrote: |
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56124/
The most disturbing thing for me was the part about how more Iraqi's have died in this war than Saddam killed in 25 years. |
Saddam killed a million people if you include his war with Iran.
at any rate
E-mail It Print It Scoop It Scoop >> World >>
Lancet Iraq Study Flawed: Death Toll Too High
Friday, 20 October 2006, 10:36 am
Press Release:
Lancet Study Fundamentally Flawed: Death Toll Too High
October 19, 2006 � 1 page �
For immediate release:
Researchers at Oxford University and Royal Holloway, University of London have found serious flaws in the survey of Iraqi deaths published last week in the Lancet.
Sean Gourley and Professor Neil Johnson of the physics department at Oxford University and Professor Michael Spagat of the economics department of Royal Holloway, University of London contend that the study�s methodology is fundamentally flawed and will result in an over-estimation of the death toll in Iraq.
->The study suffers from "main street bias" by only surveying houses that are located on cross streets next to main roads or on the main road itself. However many Iraqi households do not satisfy this strict criterion and had no chance of being surveyed.
->Main street bias inflates casualty estimates since conflict events such as car bombs, drive-by shootings artillery strikes on insurgent positions, and market place explosions gravitate toward the same neighborhood types that the researchers surveyed.
->This obvious selection bias would not matter if you were conducting a simple survey on immunisation rates for which the methodology was designed.
->In short, the closer you are to a main road, the more likely you are to die in violent activity. So if researchers only count people living close to a main road then it comes as no surprise they will over count the dead.
During email discussions between the Oxford-Royal Holloway team and the Johns Hopkins team conducted through a reporter for Science, for an article to be published October 20, it became clear that the authors of the study had not implemented a clear, well-defined and justifiable methodology. The Oxford-Royal Holloway team therefore believes that the scientific community should now re-analyze this study in depth.
The team can be reached for comment at;
Gourley: s.gourley1 @ physics.ox.ac.uk mobile:+44 (0) 7733113558
Johnson: n.johnson @ physics.ox.ac.uk
Spagat: M.Spagat @ rhul.ac.uk
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8679662/site/newsweek/page/0/
Truth is the First Civilian Casualty
Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died since 2003. But killings by U.S. troops are not nearly as common as the war�s critics would like us to believe. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Gopher wrote:
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| But the fact of the matter is, as this thing unfolded in the particular way that it did, we provoked and induced it when we did not need to. |
How so? |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
During a shooting war? Sorry. The best thing to be said about it is "premature" and "unreliable."
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| They visited a random set of homes and asked the residents if anyone in their household had died in the last few years... |
Spare me. And they got into Saddam's meticulous and honest civil registry for comparison, did they?
Finally, emphasizing who killed more, us or Saddam, or, moreover, "these shocking statistics," sounds a bit suspicious to me, Satori. But whatever. You are free to post whatever you like here. |
Are you aware of what Lancet is and what they do? They and their method have been highly respected for quite some time. And as I said, their stats have been USED by both the Brittish and American governments in the past. It's is only now that the information is less desirable that people are pulling out the flawed science thing.
And my argument here is not about adding up who has killed how many. It is about the fact that governments are dismissing good quality data when it doesn't suit them. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
When you get done meditating on lotus flowers and the incense from joss sticks, step off your pedestal long enough to look out the window, so to speak.
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Pretty good at ad hominems, eh? Well done. |
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giggles84
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Location: Loch Ness where the Monster lives, Inverness, Scotland UK planet Earth (according 2 google earth)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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ah but we warned of this in the early 90s....huntington Clashes of Civilisations forwarned us of extreme islamic extremism rising after the cold war aling with other cultural wars
then we had kissinger ( aguy i don t always agree with but he is a real acedmic) who warned and gave guidelines and problem for the US and the international community with an invasion of Iraqi and the need to to think post invasion rather just invasion in "does the USA need a foreign?" in 2001-2002. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| How so? |
We invaded the country and toppled Saddam's govt. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| And my argument here is not about adding up who has killed how many. It is about the fact that governments are dismissing good quality data when it doesn't suit them. |
Have you taken into account that the situation is so polarized that even once-reliable sources have succumbed to partisan politics? Or that the reason the opposition makes so much of the story is that it was perfectly tailored for their purposes from the start? |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Alter Net media... Now there's a reliable media source. Just the other day I heard both the BBC and CNN quoting Alter Net. Oh wait, nope, they were quoting a real source... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
During a shooting war? Sorry. The best thing to be said about it is "premature" and "unreliable."
| Quote: |
| They visited a random set of homes and asked the residents if anyone in their household had died in the last few years... |
Spare me. And they got into Saddam's meticulous and honest civil registry for comparison, did they?
Finally, emphasizing who killed more, us or Saddam, or, moreover, "these shocking statistics," sounds a bit suspicious to me, Satori. But whatever. You are free to post whatever you like here. |
Are you aware of what Lancet is and what they do? They and their method have been highly respected for quite some time. And as I said, their stats have been USED by both the Brittish and American governments in the past. It's is only now that the information is less desirable that people are pulling out the flawed science thing.
And my argument here is not about adding up who has killed how many. It is about the fact that governments are dismissing good quality data when it doesn't suit them. |
Well that is cause as of late the authors of the Lancet have gotten involved in political activism and not objective studies.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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