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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| How so? |
We invaded the country and toppled Saddam's govt. |
You forgot to say "without much of plan for afterwards, despite plenty of warnings" |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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canuckstan wrote:
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| You forgot to say "without much of plan for afterwards, despite plenty of warnings" |
And you neglected to mention, "not that that would have made much difference, given the decades of enmity stoked by the Baathists." |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
canuckstan wrote:
| Quote: |
| You forgot to say "without much of plan for afterwards, despite plenty of warnings" |
And you neglected to mention, "not that that would have made much difference, given the decades of enmity stoked by the Baathists." |
Well, if the decades of enmity stoked by the Baathists" is such an obvious fact, how come it wasn't taken into account by the war planners? I don't recall Bush predicting that the US would be faced with widespread animosity in Iraq. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| Alter Net media... Now there's a reliable media source. Just the other day I heard both the BBC and CNN quoting Alter Net. Oh wait, nope, they were quoting a real source... |
Attacking the source is actually a very weak argument. Forget about the general reputation of alternet, and focus on this story please. Are you saying this didn't happen? It did happen. I don't use alternet for all my news and I dismiss a lot of stuff there, but it pays to shop around and not get your news all from one source. Instead of attacking the source in a general way, you need to get into specific detail about why they are wrong on this story if you want your argument to hold water here. |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Attacking the source is a weak argument? Why? Because you say so? Isn't attacking the source the bedrock of every legal system in the free world? Look, I don't need to read that cr@p to know it's not true. Anyone quoting a freak show website like that deserves to be dismissed outright. There's a reason why no news source worth their salt uses alternative media as a source. Don't think yourself enlightened because you choose to reach beyond the major reputable news sources. Stick to a few major news sources and save yourself some grief. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| Attacking the source is a weak argument? Why? |
Because it provides no tangible support for your argument. You say they are not credible, but don't provide any evidence of where they have been found to be in error. It's just your word. It fails to address the factual details of the issue entirely. It's a form of ad hominem attack ( a widely discredited debating technique ) in this case replacing a person with a website. You say they are not credible but provide absolutely no evidence for such a claim. I invite you to address this specific issue and show me, prove to me, that this "didn't happen" as you so eloquently put it. Your argument is the intellectual equivalent of saying "cangel is a jingoistic reactionary hick therefore everything he says must be automatically discounted". |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: |
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How's this for tangible. I am a United States Army veteran. I served in the Middle East, Somalia and Macedonia. I have more first hand information than you. I KNOW what's happening there and no alternative media and biased survey, which no reliable new source has quoted, is going to convince me otherwise.
But you are right about what you said. Attacking the source doesn't necessarily mean what is being said is wrong. However, there are certain things we take for granted - for better or for worse. I don't need to research all the articles in the tabloids to know there isn't a word of truth in them.
Lastly, jingoistic? You must be really smart for using a word that 99% of the English speaking world has no idea what it means. Obscure words and alternative media... You ARE an enlightened soul... |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| . Stick to a few major news sources and save yourself some grief. |
Is that sarcasm? I hope so. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Lastly, jingoistic? You must be really smart for using a word that 99% of the English speaking world has no idea what it means. Obscure words and alternative media... |
I don't have any stats on hand as to what percentage of the world's English speakers know the word "jingoistic". However, it is well known enough that CNN broadcasters expect to be understood when using it.
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KURTZ: You think the media coverage has been too jingoistic, perhaps?
WOLCOTT: Oh, I think it's been, I think it's been very jingoistic and, in fact, it's not only that it's -- that certain people are beating the drum, but then they get on the ones who don't. I mean, look at the people who have been criticized for not wearing the flag on the air. Look at the ones who get criticized for using certain hedging or equivocating phrases.
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http://tinyurl.com/26zsem |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| [ I don't recall Bush predicting that the US would be faced with widespread animosity in Iraq. |
Umm....because the U.S wasn't and isn't. The vast majority of the violence is in three provinces and the majority of that is in one city.
Hardly widespread.... |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| How's this for tangible. I am a United States Army veteran. I served in the Middle East, Somalia and Macedonia. I have more first hand information than you. I... |
Um.. "first hand" would mean that you actually served there. Unless you served in the current Iraq war (which you did not) you have no more "first hand" information than the rest of us. |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Well no, I haven't served in the latest war so my knowledge isn't first hand. However, I am in almost daily communication with, oh, let's say 5 friends who are operating in a combat status in Iraq. I am in weekly communication with a dozen or so more, whom I served with, who are also in theater. This being the case, yeah, I think I do have more information than you. However, how were you to know I had this information. If you want alternative media, check out some of the reputable soldier blogs. I guess it just ticks me off when people, whom have never seen combat, who've never served in the military, take issue with how things are done. Pick up a rifle and stand a post. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
Well no, I haven't served in the latest war so my knowledge isn't first hand. However, I am in almost daily communication with, oh, let's say 5 friends who are operating in a combat status in Iraq. I am in weekly communication with a dozen or so more, whom I served with, who are also in theater. This being the case, yeah, I think I do have more information than you.
What makes you "think" you are the only one here with friends in the military?
However, how were you to know I had this information. If you want alternative media, check out some of the reputable soldier blogs. I guess it just ticks me off when people, whom have never seen combat, who've never served in the military, take issue with how things are done. .
The only thing I took issue with was the "first hand" remark as it seemed odd beyond belief that a soldier in Iraq would be posting on here. 
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| ...it just ticks me off when people...[who] have never seen combat, who've never served in the military, take issue with how things are done. Pick up a rifle and stand a post. |
Is that you, Colonel Jessep?
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| Well no, I haven't served in the latest war so my knowledge isn't first hand. However, I am in almost daily communication with, oh, let's say 5 friends who are operating in a combat status in Iraq. I am in weekly communication with a dozen or so more, whom I served with, who are also in theater. This being the case, yeah, I think I do have more information than you. However, how were you to know I had this information. If you want alternative media, check out some of the reputable soldier blogs. I guess it just ticks me off when people, whom have never seen combat, who've never served in the military, take issue with how things are done. Pick up a rifle and stand a post. |
Even if you WERE in this Iraq war, you would not actually be better placed to know about Iraqi CIVILIAN fatalities than a civilian. It takes a survey to get that information, and it`s not something the army does themselves, they record only their own dead and enemy combatant deaths if Im not mistaken. And no Im not "complaining about how things are done" with any regard to the military. Im complaining that GOVERNMENTS seek to discredit death stats that don`t suit them ( easy when you`re a government to find a scientist to say what you want them to say ) when in fact both the Brittish and American governments have USED Lancet before to collect death stats in Kosovo and Bosnia. They obviously thought the team and their methods were reliable at that time, but now suddenly and mysteriously the highly respectable Lancet team and their method has become "flawed science" when the data is unpallatable.
Finally, regarding your contention that you don`t even need to check if this happened or not because it was reported on Alternet, perhaps you`d be interested in this little story by a rather more respected source, is the BBC good enough for your royal highness?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm
Would you like some sauce with that pie? |
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