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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever,
I yelled myself hoarse my first two years of teaching, way back in the day. Hurt like heck, seemed to work ok at the time...but I noticed something odd.
I lost my voice from all the yelling -- I could not talk over a whisper for a week, from the strain (tonsilitis at the time didn't help). So, a week of whispering in all my classes.
My kids strained to hear me. I got the quiet attention I wanted for the lesson by whispering instead of yelling. My voice came back, but I quit yelling. I think I have yelled in class maybe a dozen times in a dozen years...not counting breaking up fights. Yelling works in the short term, but is not very good for the long haul -- nor are the other things I suggested earlier in the thread. They are all intended as immediate, emergency fixes, not something that I would suggest as a modus operandi.
Is standing in the corner, holding a chair, or kneeling demeaning? Would it be demeaning for a man to wear a skirt? Many might think so, but a kilt looks like a skirt to some, and those that wear kilts do not find it demeaning in the slightest. What I am saying is that while it might be demeaning for American kids to be sent to the corner or kneel with their hands over their heads, it is still part of the school culture here, and so the "shame" I might feel by having to do it is not the same as the "shame" the students feel. I can put on a kilt, but I am sorry, *I* would feel embarrassed. No reason that I should, it is a very masculine piece of attire in another culture, but I would feel silly. Same if I put Hanbok on.
I feel like a tool whenever I have to punish students. I hate doing it in any circumstances. I would much prefer students to simply do what they ought to do, and never need any kind of correction for their behavior, so I could go about the business of teaching the lessons. Unfortunately, sometimes learning how to act IS the lesson I need to teach, and there are many ways to teach it. In a case where I, personally, have to resort to punishing the students somehow, I do feel like an arse and a failure for not having been able to head off the situation. However, I do punish them to get them back on track, and I make a mental note of where I went wrong so I don't go down that path again.
I absolutely hate enforcing discipline. I would prefer my students choose to behave appropriately. Reality is, sometimes they don't, and they need a nudge in the right direction, so I nudge. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Location: at my wit's end
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| Maybe times are changing in Korea, but they haven't changed yet. |
I think this is an excellent point. I don't necessarily like seeing the other teachers hit the kids with sticks or make them "reach for the stars" for 10 minutes, but dammit, it's not my place to stop them. It's like swimming upstream.
I think that all we can do here is just try to show by example how we would like disicpline to be handled. Of course, when I try to verbally disicpline students ("Why do you choose not to listen?" "Is this how all Korean students treat foreign teachers?" "Are you seven or seventeen?" etc), I always get a hushed "Sorry, teacher" response, and 10 minutes later the problems are back.
When the CT makes the students stand up and face the wall, or hits a few palms, then we can get back to the business of teaching English.
So maybe in the long run our presence here will have some small influence on pedagogy, but I think we're still a long ways away from that point. Until then we may have to bite the bullet and live in the 1950s. This means seemingly "draconian" measures must be both taken and tolerated on our part...sad but true. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Your intolerance of differing opinions, however, *I* find a bit unsettling. |
Gadfly, I did qualify my statements and made sure to say that I was not judging your ability to teach. Please reread my post. I am not intolerant of opinion, what I am intolerant of, is your actions. Your first post stated some very good points about safety and security but really driveled on about humiliating students and punishing and creating fear in them, with no real connection between their transgressions and that punishment.
I've had many stressful and challenging classrooms. My first year, I ran for the hills after teaching grade 10 "general" high school geography. My class was a mess, management and more. Kids didn't care and all my ideals melted in the face of that. But I've learnt and have met the challenges of much more difficult classes. Mostly through a set of classroom management techniques , partly through very motivating and student centered activity planned lessons, partly through allowing students responsibility in the classroom and ownership.
We all know where the Korean education system fails. Not in the wonderful and brilliant students but in the draconian, top down, fearful measures employed by teachers. I've been in dozens of middle schools as part of my own job and I can tell you, the majority of them are broken, sad places. really and truly. Broken and sad because they are punishment driven and fearful and allow no creative or student willed expression beyond the facile.
Knowing this, why would anyone from "outside" advocate the same sort of measures?
Yes, it is a crisis but if you have to punish children and students in the way you advocate, you should quit. yes, there are other jobs and avenues open for you, sorry to say.
Regarding what I can offer the OP. I outlined some measures. I would ask her also to address the problem of so many classrooms. I can tell you for certain that in SMOE this will change next semester and for the most part, as much as can be supervized, there will be very few "roving" teachers. This has been a big realization and part of the changes they are instituting in hand with the SMOE. But I think La belle fille really has to approach her school and ask for help regarding this. AND try to slow down. Get the kids doing active work. Mini books work well. Lots of cutting / pasting/ drawing and the kids are more active. Then she can work with them in smaller groups.
Also, create routine. A lot of classroom management issues arise because of the lack of routine. Students need this and do well with this. Agenda ALWAYS on the board and keep the basic flow, the same. Routine is a big point. Also as others have mentioned, not just the routine of the lesson but within the lesson. Routine of signs/signals. Routine of tasks. Routine of entrance and exiting. All this micromanaging stuff is super helpful.
Sorry about the disorganization of this post but I'm writing on the fly. I just want to say that I am not judging you as a person -- only your own actions in regards to the classroom. I'll post O'Neill's manifesto when I have a moment or look on the teaching page of my website. He says what i believe.
DD
PS. I did my share also of inner city high school supply teaching. And if you can handle that, Korea is a cakewalk, really is... |
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seoulsteve
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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You need a few basic things to have a calm, focused, productive classroom:
1. RESPECT
-calling your students "juvenile delinquents", "ingrates" or "bastards" is disrespectful.
-to make your students fearful is disrespectful.
-humiliating your students is disrespectful.
-comparing teaching children to fighting a battle is disrespectful to your students. They are in no way an enemy to be conquered!
2. EFFORT
-Even though it's important to "establish discipline" when you first start to teach a class, you should remember that discipline is an ongoing process. Everyone loses their focus sometimes, everyone misbehaves sometimes. Teachers have to work constantly to make sure their students are on task.
3. ENJOYMENT
Students have to enjoy what they're learning to learn it. You can't force anyone to learn anything. You can force sometime to regurgitate information, but true learning requires curiosity and creativity, two things that can't be forced.
4. EXAMPLES
Teachers need to exemplify proper behavior. Respect your students, put lots of effort into your work, and enjoy teaching your students. If you get your students attention by yelling, the only thing that that shows your students is that in order to get someones attention, you have to scream your brains out. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Just to answer your questions:
1. There is a bell in every classroom that you hit to get the students attention but they are desensitized to it and it doesn't work. I introduced something else: I say "Attention!" and they are supposed to clap twice and then put their finger over their mouths but only 2-10 students do it each time...even if i say it 3 times there are still students that just sit there and do nothing and I even give students stickers if they are the only ones who do it.
2. I discussed in my last post how the introductions of the rules went....and it's not my classroom so I can't post them.
3. There's definitely not consistency with the co-t
4. How can punishments be learning oriented? I don't understand that.
5. I can't alter the classroom since it's not mine.
6. What duties and responsibilites could I give to off-task/troublesome students?
7. I think these kids have a ways to go before they can be a learning community lol. How can I do that anyway? How can they personalize their learning?
8. What do you mean by tracking of misbehavior? Making a chart? I give the kids stickers if they are good, once they get 15 they can get a prize. But they don't seem too thrilled by the prizes- they're pretty ungrateful even though I'm spending my hard earned money to buy 400 kids prizes lol so i don't think i'm doing it next semester. my co-t had something in place when i got here. the kids have 3 hearts at the beginning. if they are bad she erases half of one or more, if they have any left they get a certain # of stars. if they get 12 stars they get a snack and movie day. i wanted to do that and my stickers-prizes set-up but she didn't want to. so we did stickers-prizes this sem. and we'll do the hearts-stars next sem.
9. I'm sure none of the head teachers or admin. have been approached about the problem. Once or twice I tried talking to the students but my co-t wouldn't translate for me!!!! she's definitely not helping the problem! |
La belle fille,
Finally getting the time to respond. I sympathize with your situation and I don't think any teacher should be roaming around the school and jumping into so many environments. As I mentioned in the previous post, this will change in SMOE, as much as central office can control/enforce it. But you should talk to admin and voice that it just isn't working and something has to be done.
here is an old thread where we had the same discussion in a way. I also have there a link to some videos on classroom management and also the list of techniques. Page 3 or 4.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=81691&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Gadfly might think I'm just a collector of resources but I spend many many hours sending out emails to teachers in situations like yourself and while I don't think that I have a magic key, the process of communicating helps us both and allows reflection. You are already being very reflective and are on your way to success. It just isn't clear at this frustrating moment. The biggest asset a teacher has is to reflect and then adjust, not use a rote set of commands for all situations. But there are some things which can help us all I think....
1. You have to go right to the end, with the signalling device. It is most important to the classroom. If they aren't listening a) try to make a game out of it. Who will freeze the fastest? Always when signalling ring twice. Once to hold the student's attention and the next time lightly to have them slowly relax and regroup. If the game doesn't work, try having a student captain hit the bell. Appoint one in charge. They will listen to the class leader. If still, you will just have to sit down and wait em out. No punishment, no screaming, no chairs and all that neandrathal stuff. Just sit down and say we will begin when you are ready. Wait them out and make sure to look/scan the group for compliance. Sometimes, you might try the clapping game for a signal. Some schools do better with it. Clap a set and they will repeat. Challenge them again. Keep doing it until all are repeating. Also for signalling make sure you start the tone of your voice after the signal, calmly, slowly. This creates a quieter, more learning conducive dynamic.
2. Class rules. Can you suggest to each teacher, that they post the rules, even in Korean, in the class????
3. Yes, sorry about that problem with the coteacher and this is yet another problem in the coteaching dynamic that is unfortunately not resolvable yet. Coteachers should chose themselves but the reality is that they are thrown together and then have to "make do". Bad idea but that is what is.... that is where having your own English classroom is of benefit, besides also the fact you'd have it decorated and have so much extra language reinforcement.
4. Icnelly was on the right track. Punishments must make the connection to the crime. Otherwise the only thing learnt is not, "I did something wrong regarding learning / our class" but "She hates me, she has power, I don't. I will try in any small way to show I have some." What it means is that when students are not on task (in an overt way, of course students will get tired, have an off day etc...) or bothering the learning of others -- they are punished by having to A) summarize what they did wrong and make ammends [apologize, clean the floor, write a note, do supplemental work [not rote lines, this isn't learning] and undertake more class chores etc..... B) they are set aside in a time out area (in class, away from others) where they can occupy themselves with a set task. Believe me, I have tried this and it works in Korea. Korean kids don't like to be set apart from the group. This won't work back home but here it does....
5. Yes, too bad. So much can be done with regrouping/rearranging the classroom. Is there any way you can find out who the group leaders are, give them responsibility for control of some sort? Any way to maybe get kids to sit in the front of the class for part of it, change things. Probably not but think outside the box....
6. Duties can include not just giving them cleaning, erasing the board, organizing papers, collecting papers, staying 5 min. to get the chairs in place, organizing the bins of supplies (glue, scissors) but also duties where they have responsibility. So many kids who are the real fireplugs that start so much, turn around when given responsibility and a task. Being the line monitor, calling the class to order, saying goodbye for the whole class (and thank you). Being in charge of getting supplies or the computer being turned on etc.....so many...I did this by having an arm band for each job, of a particular colour. Arm bands could be earned and transfered....
7. This is too long a topic for here. But they will get motivated if they can express themselves, even in English. As I mentioned to gladfly, to give yourself time to figure things out, get them making mini books. See my Mr. Xs amazing day in my teaching folder. They cut and paste the pics and colour and write to make a great mini book. Or they can do it by drawing My favourite things. Or boys, Things I hate....... This will keep them busy, give tasks and at this time of year, is the perfect thing when their mind is elsewhere.... http://www.esnips.com/doc/a3aad1a0-75f4-4335-b4ee-ea19d7faa896/action-story-photos--Mr.-X Usually this and the ppt in the same folder are for members of my community only but I just uploaded it here, so you don't have to join and can use...
8. yes, you need a tracking sheet. Candies and stickers are good but can quickly get out of hand and turn into something not related to behaviour....Also, you are doing too much work. Always be thinking in what ways, the students can be doing the work....meaning, let them track themselves, you just have the book and tell them to write their name and time....also, they should put the stickers on their own sheet/poster and also get their own candy. just nod and they should be trained what to do.... but you need a tracking sheet to show students that the repetitive problem of their behaviour. they understand numbers and you'll get more response from them, respect.
9. Try to talk to someone. There is a head teacher and he/she can do a lot. Just by informing all the coteachers. They should be your allie, (along with the tech guy!) and you need their support. Get a translator but you have to do this, to change things for the better. Explain it always not about the students behaviour but about "better teaching". Keep it positive. A white lie, yes but a necessary one.
I'll try and take some stuff off my old message board where I helped a lot of teachers with advice. Might be some more that might just strike a chord. As others have mentioned, many great books and online resources for reflection too. David Paul's is more for understanding the psychology but a real good read.....Jones is the guru of classroom management and writes in a real, informal and approachable style...
Hang in there, one day at a time..
DD |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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DD,
*I* do not have these problems.
You had a bad first year so you "ran for the hills." I had a bad first year, so I put my head down and got through it. You are suggesting that the OP should simply quit? That there is nothing that can be done to save it now?
My actions regarding my classroom? If you care to come and SEE what I do in the classroom, not only will I welcome you to any and all classes, but I will meet you at the bus stop and let you sleep on my couch that night. I'll buy lunch if you buy dinner, or vice versa. Until then, I will thank you to not "judge my actions" until you SEE my actions. I am serious, by the way. A real invitation -- PM if want to accept.
Your suggestions are great, as I have said time and again, but they do not fix anything TODAY, THIS WEEK, or even this month. Sure, the OP could pass the buck to another teacher at the school, but guess what? If the homeroom teacher deals with the kids, the punishment will most likely be what I outlined. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Hellsmk2 wrote: |
I've yet to teach but my housemate is a teacher here in the UK. He's told me to have a long plastic ruler and to carry on trying to teach, calmly walk over to the unruly pupil whilst still teaching/ talking and then slam the ruler down on the desk.
He says most of the time they sound will make em' jump and shut up.
I could be totally wrong and won't know about it until I've had similar problems later this year  |
I had a teacher do this kind of thing to me when I was a kid. I hated him so much I refused to attend his class, and would walk out of the homeroom and read in the library instead.
If anything this kind of 'discipline' resulted in me being a worse student than I was before. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| Hellsmk2 wrote: |
I've yet to teach but my housemate is a teacher here in the UK. He's told me to have a long plastic ruler and to carry on trying to teach, calmly walk over to the unruly pupil whilst still teaching/ talking and then slam the ruler down on the desk.
He says most of the time they sound will make em' jump and shut up.
I could be totally wrong and won't know about it until I've had similar problems later this year |
I had a teacher do this kind of thing to me when I was a kid. I hated him so much I refused to attend his class, and would walk out of the homeroom and read in the library instead.
If anything this kind of 'discipline' resulted in me being a worse student than I was before. |
But he didn't have to deal with you and so it worked...for him. If I were a teacher in that situation where a disruptive student didn't come to class, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, I'd just give him an F for attendance and carry on. No skin off my nose. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Hellsmk2 wrote: |
I've yet to teach but my housemate is a teacher here in the UK. He's told me to have a long plastic ruler and to carry on trying to teach, calmly walk over to the unruly pupil whilst still teaching/ talking and then slam the ruler down on the desk.
He says most of the time they sound will make em' jump and shut up.
I could be totally wrong and won't know about it until I've had similar problems later this year |
I had a teacher do this kind of thing to me when I was a kid. I hated him so much I refused to attend his class, and would walk out of the homeroom and read in the library instead.
If anything this kind of 'discipline' resulted in me being a worse student than I was before. |
But he didn't have to deal with you and so it worked...for him. If I were a teacher in that situation where a disruptive student didn't come to class, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, I'd just give him an F for attendance and carry on. No skin off my nose. |
Actually he lost his job. I wasn't the only one, and a lot of parents complained, so he left. |
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