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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| [. Imagine that France were superior in military power to Britain, and they began attacking us, bombing civillian structure and towns and cities and killing many civillians. If we (the British) had an organised resistance that could hit back at France, albeit in a more limited capacity, and give them a taste of their own medicine, than I would back it to the hilt. "Let them have a taste our pain," I would surely cry. Don't lie to me The_Conservative, and pretend you wouldn't feel the same way. |
Actually I wouldn't...I'm not British. And if the British targeted civilians whereas France targeted military sites then I'd be all for hitting the British harder and harder until they give up.
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The British/France analogy is just an example. Any reasonable person would understand I was hypothesising about my own situation, and inviting you to imagine your own.
Secondly, if you insist in believing that the Israelis were only targetting military sites, then you are wilfully deluding yourself. They targetted food factories, schools, even hospitals. They targetted civillian conveys, and they targetted villages and heavily populated residential areas, even Christian neighbourhoods that had no connection with Hezbollah. They wanted to create terror among the Lebanese, thinking that this would cause them to turn on Hezbollah, the way such tactics had caused them to turn on Palestinians in earlier conflict. However, this plan backfired. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I haven't got time to look up sources, not tonight anyhow. But there are documents that show that when the colonial powers were carving things up, the Sheeba farms were wrongly shown on the (French drawn) map as being part of Syria. There are documents that show the French were aware of the error at the time, and had been considering correcting the problem. The (now exiled) inhabitants of the Sheeba farms were ethnically and culturally aligned with the Shiite Lebanese, and in practical terms the Sheeba farms functioned as a part of South Lebanon, even if the maps showed it being part of Syria. |
it is also the opinon of the UN that it is Syrian territory |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Kuros:
I meant to make another point when I was replying to your post yesterday; however, the little critter in my avatar rather distracted me.
The occupation may have ended 7 years ago, but you have to consider that the Lebanese Shiite endured years of war and occupation. This will have deeply affected their collective psyche in a way that is difficult for those of us who have not endured a long war to properly appreciate. Most of the population will have lost family or friends, known people who were terribly maimed, imprisoned or raped by occupying forces etc. This is not something people can forget overnight. On top of that, the IDF regularly violated the ceasefire agreement, flying jets over civillian areas at low altitudes almost daily, reminding the Shiites every day of the terrible war and of their continuing vulnerability. It is no wonder they still support their only vehicle to defend themselves: Hezbollah. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Why then is it not okay for Israeli not to get angry for 60 years of war against it?
For some reason on this board so think that it is ok to attack Israel but it is not okay for Israel to hit back. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: |
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Well now...OLD Mosley is back after a 2 week hiatus and finds that Big Bird is quite offended that I call her an apologist for Hezbollah...and then goes on to repeat her drivel about the "justification'' for the terror and murder that these thugs perpetrate. She uses pseudo-academic arguments to justify-nay, praise-an organization that deliberately targets Israeli woman & children as their victims. In other words, it doesn't matter if the dead Israeli is a child or a military combatant so long as their name is Levi or Cohen. Moreover, Hezbollah deliberately places its "own" in the line of fire(as it did in the summer of '06) in order to create "martyrs". And, she uses the tired & repellent leftist trick of equating Nazi Germany with Israel. Rather ironic, when one considers that it's quite easy to picture BB saying, c.1944: "Sure...the Nazis are gassing Jews but hey...don't you know how badly the Germans suffered under Versailles?"
Ironic how socialists, who purport to adhere to an ideology(whether based on Marxism-Leninism or its "kinder, gentler" variants like Fabianism,etc.) that supposedly relies on "scientific" or "rational" analysis, are actually captivated by a bizarre romanticization of violence. It's a visceral, emotional fantasy world of the most obscene & immoral kind, where images of the random slaughter of innocents excites the imagination of those who convince themselves that such violence is glorious so long as it's committed on behalf of the "oppressed", who are inevitably "Third World"--non-white, non-Christian, non-Jewish. You can forget about "workers" though...those vulgar and often conservative masses that socialists disdain. Of course, it's rather easy to engage in these sactimonious fantasies if you come from a Western, peaceful and bourgeois background.
OK. BB's reply on this thread is business as usual. Ho-hum. Ah, but dear Dave's posters, there's something special here. Yes, BB has chosen to attack me...wait for it...on the basis of my age!  Yes, the passionate humanitarian has chosen to insult me because I was born in a certain year! Well, dad burn it, I should go after that dadgummed whippersnapper! Yep, I would...but I can't find my walker & Geritol. Too bad I wasn't a cripple too...she could have a field day! Here's how personal insults actually work, SWEETIE: you go after a person for something they have CONTROL over. Example...if I were to suggest that a certain BIRD was too BIG due to girth brought on by an unwillingness to quit shoving food from a trough into one's gob...well, that would be a personal insult. But I don't do that ...I only attack posters on what they assert on the threads.
Nope. She wasn't done folks. She expressed a fantasy(in vulgar terms that I'll leave for the psychiatric professionals to evaluate) that I've been in a certain state of sexual excitement(a credit to the elderly, then?) while responding to her vile nonsense. I've noticed that she's done this to at least one other poster. Again, psychiatry comes to mind. I can only assure BB that when the day comes I equate "revulsion" or "disgust" with "sexual desire" well, then ...she might a have a point.
Ah, the last thing. Assuming that those "other posters" aren't figments of BB's addled imagination, all I can say is this: the next time you get PMs from these gutless wonders, tell 'em to take on ole Mosley in open at the forums. Hell, you mean even w/internet anonymity these cowards are too gutless to take on an old geezer like myself?!
Cowards indeed...just like Hezbollah....
BS: Does BB work in Korea? I'd love to hear her say something to her Korean colleagues about the oppressed Taliban and their hostage strategy! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: |
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It's hard to know where to start with you, because to reason with you would be practically impossible, seeing as you've swallowed a lifetime's worth of propaganda, and are too willing to accept the official line at face value.
| Mosley wrote: |
| .and then goes on to repeat her drivel about the "justification'' for the terror and murder that these thugs perpetrate. |
Sorry, but I believe self-defense IS a justification for violence. In fact, it is probably the ONLY justification for violence. If it were the Lebanese carbet bombing Israel, and the Lebanese army marching into Israel, I'd have every sympathy for a rag tag Israeli resistance doing everything they could to repel their invaders.
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| She uses pseudo-academic arguments to justify-nay |
Ha, well if you think I'm trying to be academic, you are very mistaken. I'm just a plain old maths graduate. I write plainly. I leave the fancy terms and labelling for them wot 'ave dabbled in the humanities. 
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, praise-an organization that deliberately targets Israeli woman & children as their victims. |
Sorry, but I would say that it is the IDF that has been deliberately targetting civillians in recent years. In the last decade or so, Hezbollah only targetted civillians during the 06 war, after the IDF had already killed or maimed thousands. YOu seem to be an apologist for a killing machine that knowingly targetted civillian areas, and frankly, I think that is sick.
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| In other words, it doesn't matter if the dead Israeli is a child or a military combatant so long as their name is Levi or Cohen. |
If you think I think it's cool for little Israeli children to be killed then you are quite wrong. Children are not to be blamed nor do the deserve to be punished for the crimes of their governments, or even those of their parents. I also feel rather sorry for the young conscripts, as they are pumped full of propaganda at an age where they are not able to be critical of what they are told, and sent out to do the governments dirty work. Each time an Israeli soldier is killed, that is a lifetime of agony for his/her immediate family, and that is nothing to gloat over. If the Israeli government would desist from her (now occasional but lethal) aggression against Lebanon and end the occupation of the West Bank, this kind of tragedy could be relegated to the past.
Unlike YOU however, I think:
an Israeli child is of equal worth to an Arab child.
And that also means:
an Arab child is of equal worth to an Israeli child.
And although the latter is equivalent to the former, you probably feel less comfortable with it...
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| Moreover, Hezbollah deliberately places its "own" in the line of fire(as it did in the summer of '06) in order to create "martyrs". |
This is hilarious. Babies and their mothers were slaughtered in their own homes and the Israeli government said - Oh but they were mixing with terrorists! Imagine the reverse, if Arabs had blown up the homes of Israeli soldiers and said, "Oh, it's regrettable, but they were in the homes of IDF terrorists."
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| And, she uses the tired & repellent leftist trick of equating Nazi Germany with Israel. Rather ironic, when one considers that it's quite easy to picture BB saying, c.1944: "Sure...the Nazis are gassing Jews but hey...don't you know how badly the Germans suffered under Versailles?" |
And here you show your ugliness. You try to make me an imaginary apologist for gassing human beings. You are a very sick man indeed. If anything, I can imagine YOU being an apologist for that type of thing if you had been born an Blonde Blue-Eyed German. Look how glibly you justify the deaths of young babies and mothers who were unfortunate to have been born in the wrong location. Unfortunately you ARE an apologist for the killing of innocents - you have clearly shown yourself to be one, even in your last post.
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| Ironic how socialists, who purport to adhere to an ideology(whether based on Marxism-Leninism or its "kinder, gentler" variants like Fabianism,etc.) that supposedly relies on "scientific" or "rational" analysis, are actually captivated by a bizarre romanticization of violence. It's a visceral, emotional fantasy world of the most obscene & immoral kind, where images of the random slaughter of innocents excites the imagination of those who convince themselves that such violence is glorious so long as it's committed on behalf of the "oppressed", who are inevitably "Third World"--non-white, non-Christian, non-Jewish. You can forget about "workers" though...those vulgar and often conservative masses that socialists disdain. Of course, it's rather easy to engage in these sactimonious fantasies if you come from a Western, peaceful and bourgeois background. |
And here you are again, fantasising about what I fantasise about. And once again revealing a sick mind. I would rather the Lebanese did not feel they had to resort to violence. I do not glorify their violence as you pretend. However, I can understand why young teenage boys, who never had the good fortune to "come from a Western, peaceful and bourgeois background" and instead suffered their childhood under a horrible and brutal occupation, join a resistance organisation to fight their invaders and occupiers.
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| OK. BB's reply on this thread is business as usual. Ho-hum. Ah, but dear Dave's posters, there's something special here. Yes, BB has chosen to attack me...wait for it...on the basis of my age! Yes, the passionate humanitarian has chosen to insult me because I was born in a certain year! Well, dad burn it, I should go after that dadgummed whippersnapper! Yep, I would...but I can't find my walker & Geritol. |
Believe it or not, I generally like the company of older people. It was often something I missed when I lived in Korea - older (Western) friends. I feel I have a lot to learn from them and generally I have a certain respect for the fact they've spent more years on this earth and acquired far more experience than me. I miss my old dad who died not so long ago, and greatly miss his wisdom and memories of a world I was too young (or unborn) to know properly.
However, it's hard to have a respect for someone who, despite having lived for so many years, is still so nasty and ugly, and seems to have learned no compassion for his fellow man.
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| SWEETIE: you go after a person for something they have CONTROL over. Example...if I were to suggest that a certain BIRD was too BIG due to girth brought on by an unwillingness to quit shoving food from a trough into one's gob...well, that would be a personal insult. But I don't do that ...I only attack posters on what they assert on the threads. |
In truth, I generally agree with that principal. Yet you attacked me for being an anti-semite. You have NO proof of this, and have based an extremely ugly accusation on the mere fact that I dislike Israel's agression toward her neighbours, and can understand why one set of human beings would seek to resist the occupation/agression of another. An anti-semite is a disgusting and disgraceful individual. It is a very grave and serious matter. Not a frivolous insult to be hurled about to someone you barely know. To call someone an anti-semite on such flimsy evidence is DISGRACEFUL and SCANDALOUS and you lost all my respect in that instance. In fact, other posters were disgusted by your comments and pmed me that I should contact the mods. They recognised that you had behaved ABSOLUTELY DISGRACEFULLY, although you, despite your advanced years, could not.
Also, if you think I have fat legs, you don't know what fat is, and you must have spent the last 2 weeks in a refugee camp on the edge of Darfur. No wonder so many young girls in the world are anorexic, when perfectly normal women are accused of being fat by silly people like you.
Or perhaps you got me mixed up with your girlfriend
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Nope. She wasn't done folks. She expressed a fantasy(in vulgar terms that I'll leave for the psychiatric professionals to evaluate) that I've been in a certain state of sexual excitement(a credit to the elderly, then?) while responding to her vile nonsense. I've noticed that she's done this to at least one other poster. Again, psychiatry comes to mind. I can only assure BB that when the day comes I equate "revulsion" or "disgust" with "sexual desire" well, then ...she might a have a point.
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Sexual insults are standard fare on these types of forum. I don't mind putting a little 'colour' into a debate when I'm dealing with tossers.
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| Ah, the last thing. Assuming that those "other posters" aren't figments of BB's addled imagination, all I can say is this: the next time you get PMs from these gutless wonders, tell 'em to take on ole Mosley in open at the forums. Hell, you mean even w/internet anonymity these cowards are too gutless to take on an old geezer like myself?! |
Some people are more dignified than you or I.
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| Cowards indeed...just like Hezbollah.... |
Actually, there are many who would consider the young fighters, who took on one of the mightiest military outfits in the world, rather brave.
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| BS: Does BB work in Korea? I'd love to hear her say something to her Korean colleagues about the oppressed Taliban and their hostage strategy! |
If you're so keen to discuss that - why don't you go to the appropriate thread? For the record, I've no admiration for the Taliban, nor their ugly tactics. But if it turns you on to think I do, go ahead and get yourself off... |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Oh but they were mixing with terrorists! Imagine the reverse, if Arabs had blown up the homes of Israeli soldiers and said, "Oh, it's regrettable, but they were in the homes of IDF terrorists."
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Dear BB
I know that you are busy getting into it with other people while making insults but I'd like to remind you again (hopefully this contributes something more than your posted picture) that the IDF receives flack everytime they kill a child and try to avoid this...why else do they put scopes on their rifles...Terrorists on the other hand mix with children on purpose (doesn't matter the kids are going to meet allah right?? and that's much better than this evil world) and like to spray AK47 fire all over the place.....and oh the arabs are specifically trying to kill as many Israeli civillians as possible...why else would they send a bomber into a pizza parlour or special jewish dinner..... |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
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Oh but they were mixing with terrorists! Imagine the reverse, if Arabs had blown up the homes of Israeli soldiers and said, "Oh, it's regrettable, but they were in the homes of IDF terrorists."
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Dear BB
I know that you are busy getting into it with other people while making insults but I'd like to remind you again (hopefully this contributes something more than your posted picture) that the IDF receives flack everytime they kill a child and try to avoid this...why else do they put scopes on their rifles...Terrorists on the other hand mix with children on purpose (doesn't matter the kids are going to meet allah right?? and that's much better than this evil world) and like to spray AK47 fire all over the place.....and oh the arabs are specifically trying to kill as many Israeli civillians as possible...why else would they send a bomber into a pizza parlour or special jewish dinner..... |
States that use terror do so because it is the most effective tactic available to them. War since WWI has been a completely amoral activity--all powers know that civilian casualties are an inevitability. I fail to see how one tactic is morally superior to another when both result in large amounts of unarmed lying dead. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| how about when Al Qaeda or Hizzbollah conducts attacks in other countires? |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I fail to see how one tactic is morally superior to another when both result in large amounts of unarmed lying dead |
What's the matter?? you can't get your mind around the difference between people who do not want to kill innocent bystanders vs people who intentionally try to kill as many as possible...??? too difficult?? |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
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| I fail to see how one tactic is morally superior to another when both result in large amounts of unarmed lying dead |
What's the matter?? you can't get your mind around the difference between people who do not want to kill innocent bystanders vs people who intentionally try to kill as many as possible...??? too difficult?? |
They do not want to-yet they know it will happen. Every time. All the time. No matter what the demographics are. So what's the difference? The ends are the same no matter the means. Obviously, the political aims and results desired by those that use terror are morally repugnant--the ideas that drive them are much more dangerous and should be eradicated. But the results of terror tactics and conventional tactics are often very much the same, intent be damned. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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If Hezbollah attacks the Israelis at Shebaah farms or wherever, that is the risk they take. If they are caught in a retalliation or even a general war based on their stupidity that also is part of the risk.
If these same fools shelter among the general population and some civilians are caught in the crossfire that is also their own darned problem.
The fault seems to lie in the idea of a risk free war. They attack, they lose. Then they whine and snivel about how unfair it all is. Give me a break. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
If Hezbollah attacks the Israelis at Shebaah farms or wherever, that is the risk they take. If they are caught in a retalliation or even a general war based on their stupidity that also is part of the risk.
If these same fools shelter among the general population and some civilians are caught in the crossfire that is also their own darned problem.
The fault seems to lie in the idea of a risk free war. They attack, they lose. Then they whine and snivel about how unfair it all is. Give me a break. |
So Israel would prefer that Hezbollah not take shelter among civilians, as they would prefer not to kill civilians, but they don't care either way what Hezbollah actually does, and Israel will knowingly kill civilians in order to "defeat" Hezbollah. And make a largely political and symbolic show of strength and assertiveness.
Also, civilian casualties have outnumber military in every conflict since the beginning of the 20th Century, whether or not the opponents used terror tactics. In Vietnam it was about 5:1, in Korea about 2:1, and in Iraq 8:1. Keep in mind the Iraq ratio of 30,000 civilian to 4,000 soldier is using an 8 month old civilian estimate made by Bush, compared with the most current soldier estimate. So, at the very least, it's 8:1 |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Kuros:
I meant to make another point when I was replying to your post yesterday; however, the little critter in my avatar rather distracted me.
The occupation may have ended 7 years ago, but you have to consider that the Lebanese Shiite endured years of war and occupation. This will have deeply affected their collective psyche in a way that is difficult for those of us who have not endured a long war to properly appreciate. Most of the population will have lost family or friends, known people who were terribly maimed, imprisoned or raped by occupying forces etc. This is not something people can forget overnight. On top of that, the IDF regularly violated the ceasefire agreement, flying jets over civillian areas at low altitudes almost daily, reminding the Shiites every day of the terrible war and of their continuing vulnerability. It is no wonder they still support their only vehicle to defend themselves: Hezbollah. |
Well, now you understand why Israel wants Hezbollah disarmed. It would be good for Lebanon as well, because Iran's paramilitary-wing, not even popular with the Iranian people, is destabilizing Lebanon.
Adventurer posted something better about this a few months back, but since the Search function on this site works poorly, I won't bother. Point of it was, Hezbollah was unpopular outside of the Shi'a regions, because it is a partisan faction and Iranian proxy. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Hizzbollah is a fascist hate group.
 [/img] |
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