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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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 Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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The most important thing to consider is, who has the better celebrity spokesperson?
Now, I have nothing in particular against Subway Jared, except perhaps the fact that I hate the name Jared because it reminds me of Jar Jar Binx, and the niggling little problem I have with the unfortunate reality that he's only famous because he's no longer a morbidly obese nerd. But sure, Jared's ok.
However; Quizno's has 'Grapes' Cherry. To compare Grapes with Jar-Jar the Wonder Loaf is like comparing Zsa-Zsa Gabor to Lauren Bacall, or Go-Bots to Transformers. It's no contest.
Quizno's all the way! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Big Bird, you seem to agree that we are talking about a person who has no scruples about using family members of someone she hates as a tool to hurt the person that she hates. Since some of the family members just happen to be a female spouse and a mother, it would seem clear that such a person would be disqualified in just about any discusssion having to do with misogyny and hypocrisy.
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Um, no. I don't think (at least from the example you have provided) that she was using wives and mothers as a 'tool to hurt.' That would require you to have paper-thin skin.
When she says 'your wife is a fat ugly cow and your mum is a beastly old hag' then you'll have some cause to complain. But just complaining that your inclusion of them was irrelevant (in her view) to the discussion does not equate with using them to cause you pain.
I like you, Bobster, but I can't agree with your interpretion of things in this instance. |
I will not lie. When it comes to the people I care deeply about in my life, my skin is right about three nanomillimeters thick. If I say wonderful things about them, you better do the same or say nothing at all, or you WILL get a shellacking that you will remember.
(In the instances I spoke about there was nothing "irrelevent." My mother died a long, slow painful death from diabetes, and the discussion was about the ethics of using animals to test new medicines that can help people with illnesses like that - I said it would be unethical NOT to kill every animal necessary to prevent the kind of pain I had to witness in a loved one. I stand by that . I NEVER want to see some other person I love die in pain when it could have been prevented by ANY means possible.)
You are simply wrong. I was going to say more, and oh yes, I sure can, so much more, but I've forsworn making more attacks in the direction they belong for now.
Turn it around, BB. Suppose you are in a political discussion, maybe about women's rights and abortion, and someone said Baby Bird is completely "irrelevant," and you have no business showing pictures on your avatar or sharing your happiness about every week the youngin' gets older in your sigline. How thick is YOUR skin going to be? What are you going to feel about that?
Have a feeling ... your skin and mine are right about the same thickness, comes down to it.
In any case, I was called I liar, and I have shown clearly that it is not so.
Last edited by The Bobster on Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I think most of us have been attacked at some point. Last month, someone actually attacked me, my mother, my grandmother and my sister in a single sentence. I responded indignantly and angrily, but it took all of one post. Not three threads. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| I think most of us have been attacked at some point. Last month, someone actually attacked me, my mother, my grandmother and my sister in a single sentence. I responded indignantly and angrily, but it took all of one post. Not three threads. |
Appreciate the advice you've offered with the best that is in your heart, and I'm trying to follow it, but the stuff just keeps happening ... and from the same source - someone who asks moderators to censor things she thinks are "insensitive" but has no problem dishing it out whenever she cares to.
If it has happened to you, I'm having a hard time understanding why you seem to want to side with someone who has done the same to another human as has happened to you. It's not a war, and I'm not fighting. We're talking and trying to understand each other. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| I think most of us have been attacked at some point. Last month, someone actually attacked me, my mother, my grandmother and my sister in a single sentence. I responded indignantly and angrily, but it took all of one post. Not three threads. |
Appreciate the advice you've offered with the best that is in your heart, and I'm trying to follow it, but the stuff just keeps happening ... and from the same source - someone who asks moderators to censor things she thinks are "insensitive" but has no problem dishing it out whenever she cares to.
If it has happened to you, I'm having a hard time understanding why you seem to want to side with someone who has done the same to another human as has happened to you. It's not a war, and I'm not fighting. We're talking and trying to understand each other. |
Bob, face the fact. you hijacked a thread where a lot of women were talking about being attacked mostly for being women, on this board, and made it all about you and some percieved slight.
At first I was really, really angry about that, but my opinion has changed a bit. You've said repeatedly on two boards that your wife has been telling you to step away from the computer, and spend time with her. If your wife is as smart and wonderful as you say she is, then do her the honor of listening to her a little more, even if you refuse to listen to any other woman. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="peppermint"]I listen to every woman who shows her worth to me in this world, including you. You have shown your worth in the past, and I have listened, so far.
But DON'T go talking about my family unless you have even a little love in you when you open your mouth. DON'T do that. It's not a threat. Not a warning. Just a fact : you want to be my friend, do not even HINT a bad word about someone I love.
If I were to permit it, if I were able to permit permit to speak in any way way but positively about people I could not in any way claim with any truth the veracity of my feelings. Nothing I could say is clearer than that.
You wanna talk about people I love? Say good stuff. Or don't talk about them. I can talk about them because I know them. You don't. So, don't say a word about them unless it's nice and polite, understand? Else, I'm comin' after you. Like I said, just a fact - it WILL happen.
Last edited by The Bobster on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| swetepete wrote: |
| The most important thing to consider is, who has the better celebrity spokesperson? |
You must be some kind of crackhead. The most important factor is what you get for your money. Image is passe. Quiznos is pretty good, but overpriced. With a Subway veggie delite you get a cleverly named, highly tasty, phallic symbol all at a an incredible price. Who could ask for anything more?
Also, Don Cherry is misogynist. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
If I were to permit it, if I were able to permit permit to speak in any way way but positively about people I could not in any way claim with any truth the veracity of my feelings. Nothing I could say is clearer than that.
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Play nice, or I'll make this my signature! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
If I were to permit it, if I were able to permit permit to speak in any way way but positively about people I could not in any way claim with any truth the veracity of my feelings. Nothing I could say is clearer than that.
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Play nice, or I'll make this my signature! |
Okay, you got me. One more night I been up without enough sleep, and despite peppermint's innuendos, The One Who Deserves Caresses Most, honestly, she got enough of those last night, and again this morning (though that's no one's business, and nothing peppermint needs to talk about), but apparently I did not vet my post sufficiently before hitting "submit."
Take away a few redundant words and you have the right idea. My concept of love is not only just to be gentle to the one who is loved, but fierce, and yes, angry at anyone who even breathes a word that is even slightly negative in their direction. It's not science, it comes from someplace else, but that place is also important.
Love is not always gentle. Sometimes love says, "I will NOT allow you to hurt this. Not even a little. Don't even THINK of it. Not even in your dreams."
Of course, there ARE some who will tell you that love is "irrelevent" ... |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
I think most of us have been attacked at some point. Last month, someone actually attacked me, my mother, my grandmother and my sister in a single sentence.
�
Bobster believes that he and his wife, his dead mother, his boyhood dog, etc., have been insulted. I suggest that Bramble say the following:
"Bobster, it wasn't my intention to insult you or your loved ones. If you would point out how that happened, I would be happy to clarify. I'm sorry for offending you." |
Kermo, I was going to try to deal with this via PM, because the discussion has gone way off topic and it�s not fair to the people who actually want to talk about feminism, misogyny and related concerns in a serious way. Peppermint, you�re right that the thread has been hijacked, and I don�t want to continue hijacking it, but I can see now that a lot of people have a skewed understanding of this situation. Several posters I respect can�t seem to understand why I continue to hold a grudge against The Bobster, or why I�m not rushing to make concessions and be friends with him. And although I appreciate the supportive comments from Kermo, Peppermint, Alyallen, Rteacher and Big_Bird, I�m frustrated that some of you aren�t getting the full context behind this dispute. Apparently, some of you feel The Bobster has or may have some legitimate grievances against me. That really concerns me because he has said so many hateful things about me in this thread, and in many others � I don�t know to what extent observers must believe those things if they are still supporting him.
First, I�m addressing this message to Kermo and to other concerned readers who have proven they�re worth engaging with. I�m not asking The Bobster to reconsider his opinion of me or to change his behaviour, because I know that�s a lost cause. I can�t stop him from posting a response, obviously, but I am making it clear that it�s too late for us to have any sort of dialogue.
To the good people of Dave�s�and I know you�re out there, even if I don�t acknowledge you often enough�I�ve tried to understand where many of you are coming from, and I hope you�ll try to understand my perspective too. It seems that The Bobster has a lot of supporters on these boards, and I realize that wouldn�t be the case if he behaved toward everyone the way he has toward me. I also realize that people read pieces of things on the Internet and don�t follow every thread in its entirety. So I really want to thank all of you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, considering he�s been here longer and represents a much more �mainstream� perspective. I think one of the big issues here is that he�s built up a power base and wants to defend it against any and all challengers � he seems to see me and a few other people on these boards as threats to his power, and he�s tried to isolate us with incessant abuse and baiting. I think it�s fair to say I�m his number one victim.
Now some of you are probably thinking, �But Bramble isn�t an innocent victim. She insulted The Bobster�s wife, his mother and his dog. She�s mentally unstable and a hateful bigot. He keeps saying those things, so they must have some basis in fact. Bramble must have done something to deserve it.�
OK, first, here�s my response to the charge that I�m a �hateful bigot.� Probably one of the most damaging things a person can say about another person on a board like this. A while back, The Bobster posted some random abuse and insults against me in a number of different threads. I don�t remember which insult specifically set me off, but I didn�t feel like responding in that thread or continuing that particular line of discussion. So I retaliated in the racism thread, by posting something to the effect that I hated �aging hippies� who smoked and purposely derailed threads with irrelevant nonsense about their spouses, mothers and dogs. A little mean, maybe, but definitely a lot milder than the flood of abuse I�ve received from him. It was clearly directed at him and no one else. I have nothing against aging hippies in general, or any other group of people in general. Yet The Bobster informed me via PM that I was guilty of bigotry, and then proceeded to reiterate his assessment of me as a �hateful bigot� in all subsequent posts about me � without bothering to quote the �aging hippie� remark that he was referring to. If he�d used the quote every time he called me a hateful bigot � sure, I�d laugh it off. Instead he has readers scratching their heads, thinking, �Hateful bigot? Why? What did she say? � Ooooh, I remember now. A few days ago some assclown dodged the swear filter and used the �n� word. I missed the name because the post was removed so fast, but I see now that it must have been Bramble.� (Disclaimer: That was a fictitious example.)
Do you see now why I�m calling him a pathological liar? Quite honestly, I think that's being nice.
Moving on � I borrowed the �aging hippie� comment from another poster, Pastis. The reference to �spouses and dogs� had to do with an earlier discussion in which The Bobster �debated� Pastis on the subject of morality. I hardly said anything at the time, because I knew how pointless it would be. It was Pastis who first referred to The Bobster as an aging hippie�and he was making a point about The Bobster�s mentality, not his chronological age. Pastis� arguments in that thread were serious, sincere and logical, and The Bobster spouted nothing but irrelevant nonsense in response. He was clearly doing it to provoke Pastis and to waste his time, not to learn anything or help readers learn anything. He was just listening to the sound of his own voice and trying to sound profound like the pompous ass that he is, and that�s why Pastis called him an aging hippie. It was Pastis he originally accused of insulting his wife and dog, but to anyone following the thread it was clear that Pastis had done nothing of the sort. The Bobster was just throwing out bogus accusations in a clear attempt to derail the discussion and make a mockery of the whole subject. I was only an observer�at least until I complained to the mods, who responded by locking the thread without commenting on it.
The reason I�m bringing up Pastis is that it�s one more example of a pattern of behaviour on The Bobster�s part�bait your opponent, don�t listen to what they�re saying, accuse them of holding positions they haven�t advocated, respond with some anecdote that has no relevance to the issue at hand, make pronouncements (in this case, about morality and religion) that you don�t even really believe, go around in circles with the same faulty logic, and then sit back and mock them when they take the bait and get angry. I guess those of you who are trying to see his side or acknowledge that he may have a point have never been on the receiving end of his vendettas or his baiting. I hope you�ll try to understand that this goes beyond a simple dispute about any one of the issues that have come up lately.
Regarding the reference to The Bobster�s mother, and Kermo�s suggestion that I go back and clarify something or acknowledge that The Bobster has anything remotely resembling a valid grievance against me, I�m sorry. That approach has been tried before � it�s failed too many times, and each time it gives him more opportunities to twist the facts to suit his warped perceptions.
I�m not sure how to explain this without committing the big faux-pas of speaking about �the banned,� but I guess I have no other choice, right?
A few years ago, a certain Irish setter started posting here. She looks a bit like the one in my avatar, by some strange coincidence. She made it clear that she supported animal rights�i.e., the rights of all animals, no matter who was abusing them, for what purpose, or what ethnic group the abusers belonged to. Several people attacked her, and The Bobster was her worst attacker. He misrepresented her views and made libellous statements about her character. I don�t have time to rehash everything that was said, but this red canine was eventually banned for responding to severe goading and for getting angry at the mods who punished her instead of the goaders. And who accused her of things she absolutely, in no uncertain terms, was not guilty of doing.
At one point there was a debate between �red dog� and The Bobster on the topic of vivisection. The poster known as �red dog� thought she should be patient with her opponents. She thought that if she presented her case logically, they�d see her side even if they didn�t agree. She also thought it was possible to �agree to disagree� without being continually harassed and shouted down. It turned out that she was wrong.
No one ever insulted The Bobster�s mother. No one �expressed a lack of sympathy� for The Bobster�s loss or suggested that people should be judged for seeking treatment for medical conditions. What happened is that �red dog� tried to keep the discussion on topic by pointing out that wanting to save a family member wasn�t an adequate justification for disregarding morality � for example, if your child needed a heart transplant, would you be willing to sacrifice your neighbour�s child to get the needed heart? The Bobster made it personal, as he makes everything personal � that is, if he�s singled out the person he�s talking to as one of his �victims.� He�s a lot like Jinju in that regard. In fact, �red dog� made many attempts to clarify this point, as well as numerous other points she was afraid she might not have expressed clearly enough � The Bobster repeatedly took advantage, jumping in at every chance to attack her on some bogus pretext.
I hope this helps fill in a few of the blanks for those observers who sincerely want to help. Thanks for hearing me out. It�s also occurred to me that some of you have stepped in to fill the gap left by the silent mods � and for that good turn, thanks. The Bobster has never listened to me, but maybe he�ll listen to a jury of his online peers.
Last edited by Bramble on Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Well Bramble, you've obviously put a lot of time and effort into attempting to explain your position. It seems this is a long standing 'feud' with a lot of background behind it. Sorry you feel you've gone past the point of patching things up.
Speaking for myself, nothing The Bobster has said has made me think any less of you, as I'm well aware that there are always 2 sides to the story and everyone has their unique perspective and interpretation. And, as you've pointed out, I've not followed the whole thing, so I don't presume to know what is truth and what is ill perceived. So don't worry about what I'm thinking. I like both you and The Bobster, and I'm not judging either of you harshly because of your personal differences and personality clash.
I think there might be a few things there worth The Bobster reflecting on. The following might be a good start:
| Bramble wrote: |
| The Bobster made it personal, as he makes everything personal � that is, if he�s singled out the person he�s talking to as one of his �victims.� |
I've noticed this too. I can see how translating things into the personal can be a useful debating device, and I'm not totally against it. But to get too personal, and take things too personally is not a healthy thing. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Big Bird, you seem to agree that we are talking about a person who has no scruples about using family members of someone she hates as a tool to hurt the person that she hates. Since some of the family members just happen to be a female spouse and a mother, it would seem clear that such a person would be disqualified in just about any discusssion having to do with misogyny and hypocrisy.
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Um, no. I don't think (at least from the example you have provided) that she was using wives and mothers as a 'tool to hurt.' That would require you to have paper-thin skin.
When she says 'your wife is a fat ugly cow and your mum is a beastly old hag' then you'll have some cause to complain. But just complaining that your inclusion of them was irrelevant (in her view) to the discussion does not equate with using them to cause you pain.
I like you, Bobster, but I can't agree with your interpretion of things in this instance. |
I will not lie. When it comes to the people I care deeply about in my life, my skin is right about three nanomillimeters thick. If I say wonderful things about them, you better do the same or say nothing at all, or you WILL get a shellacking that you will remember.
(In the instances I spoke about there was nothing "irrelevent." My mother died a long, slow painful death from diabetes, and the discussion was about the ethics of using animals to test new medicines that can help people with illnesses like that - I said it would be unethical NOT to kill every animal necessary to prevent the kind of pain I had to witness in a loved one. I stand by that . I NEVER want to see some other person I love die in pain when it could have been prevented by ANY means possible.)
You are simply wrong. I was going to say more, and oh yes, I sure can, so much more, but I've forsworn making more attacks in the direction they belong for now.
Turn it around, BB. Suppose you are in a political discussion, maybe about women's rights and abortion, and someone said Baby Bird is completely "irrelevant," and you have no business showing pictures on your avatar or sharing your happiness about every week the youngin' gets older in your sigline. How thick is YOUR skin going to be? What are you going to feel about that?
Have a feeling ... your skin and mine are right about the same thickness, comes down to it.
In any case, I was called I liar, and I have shown clearly that it is not so. |
Well, the fact is, if you don't have a thick skin here you'll have a very difficult time. People regularly say unpleasant things about me. Why, just now, I read the delightful postfundie refer to me as Big Turd. Woo hoo. I'm not going to let their silly crap get under my skin. I've only been hurt a few times in all the time I've posted here - I can count them on one hand - and once was when I was greiving terribly for a loved one. But mostly, I couldn't give a toss about what anonymous idiots say.
Presently there is one poster on here whose identity is known to me, and he has proved himself to be a total w@nker. Now that was an unhappy situation. I felt a little sad about that for a while, because we had been on fairly good terms in real life. But I've reconciled myself to that too. He's an unpleasant person, and I'm not about to waste too much of my precious time worrying about it. Three other mutual acqaintances who had quite liked him initially, have also lost a great deal of respect for him because of his conduct on here toward them or others. He merely harms himself by being a nasty w@nker. I'm not going to put valuable energy into bothering about it, and letting it harm me. Neither should you. Sure give a rude retort, or make fun at their expense if you like. But don't get into a 30 page feud. If someone winds you up that much, just ignore them, or vest minimum energy into it, and move on.
The fact is people have on occasion said the odd mean thing about my brats. I don't give a toss. I would if they knew me and my brats, and said it to my face, but spouting off crap on the internet anonymously doesn't seem to me to one of the things in this world worth getting all worked up about. It's a state of mind.
Lastly, it's intentions that count. I'm quite satisfied that Bramble meant no real disrespect to your family. You have seized on what is at worst some minor mistake on her part and made it into much more than it was intended. You've lost perspective.
As I said before, I like you Bobster. You often have an interesting take on stuff, and I enjoy reading it, even if my view of it is 180 degrees from yours. And we are all fallible. None of us is perfect - not you, not Bramble and certainly not me. I think you're taking things too far, making a mountain out of a molehill and getting all worked up about nought. One day you might reflect on this and agree with me. But that's just my take on this. You can take it or leave it. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Big_Bird, for taking the time to read all that and for being fair. And that sucks about the guy you know in real life.  |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Bramble wants to keep thinking this about The Bobster, but she's wrong. I've already said I'm bored with her. Be careful when you click this link, by the way ...
This is what we should be talking about.
Her face was nothing but red.
That sentence haunts me, and please, just one of you tell me you have come close to suffering anything like this. Please, do not talk to me about "different kinds" of feminism. Do not argue about whether you want to "self-dentify" as a feminist. Do not ask the mods to censor people here because someone says something you think is "insensitive."
Do NOT talk about trivial things when garbage like this is happening to women on this planet that we all share.
Of course, I'm a man, so anything I say is tinged with patriarchary, and I'm just patronizing everyone ... On the other hand, why is it that a man (me) was the first to bring this topic up? Why is it I find it on a blog authored by a man? Probably because we are all patriarchal and patronizing ...
Of course, Maya Angelou, I'm sure, is also "irrelevent" - unless you read her bio in wikipedia:
| Quote: |
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings
Angelou's first work of literature, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, is an autobiography that was published in 1969. Angelou's disruptive life inspired her to write this book. It reflects the essence of her struggle to the restrictions that were placed upon her in a hostile environment. |
She was raped at the age of 8, and after speaking of the crime that was committed upon her she became mute until the age of 13. Victim guilt. Much later, she was the first black woman (or any woman) to be asked to compose a poem and read it at a Presidential Inaugural.
Been years since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure the answer to the question is that the bird sings simply because it can.
"Can't fly while I'm in here, but I can sing. Let me out of the cage and you can see me fly, 'cuz I'm good at that, too. Until then, you'll have to listen to me sing." (My words, not hers.)
Still waiting. When are you going to let me hear you sing? When are you going to be ready to fly, if someone opens the door of the cage?
Excuse me. Just realized. All of this is probably "irrelevent" ... |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Big_Bird
| Quote: |
| Well, the fact is, if you don't have a thick skin here you'll have a very difficult time. People regularly say unpleasant things about me. |
My skin is thick enough when it comes to myself. Already said it, though. Dis me all you want, but try to use the people I love as tools in trying to hurt me, you BETTER watch your back. I cannot claim to love if I do not seek to protect.
And I WILL be fierce in protecting what I love.
Her name was Dua Khalil. She was stoned and pulled apart limb from limb while people stood with handphones taking pictures. We should talk about her. ("Her face was nothing but red." Sorry, can't get that out of my mind.) Her name is Maya Angelou. She was raped as a child, and later stood up next to a President and read some words she had made for that day, after having made an incredible body of literature that makes the world larger and richer for every single one of us. We should talk about her.
Bramble / red dog? I could care less. "Irrelevent." |
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