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The Islam Thread
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fromtheuk



Joined: 31 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try and answer your questions:

I would like to ask you some questions? I have now read all 11 pages I'm British also, by the way

You know the vast majority of the people of the UK were against the invasion of Iraq, are they also pagans and kuffars and are deserving of the atrocities of 7/7 for example?

Well most of Britain are not Muslim, but are barely Christian in name. So they are kuffar, which is the plural term for non-Muslim. I don't believe 7/7 was a permissible act, so I don't wish to see that repeated. By the way, I think after the initial invasion polls indicated most of Britain supported it, it's only when things went pear-shaped, support for the invasion declined.

Once the British armed forces leave Iraq, should any future bombings under the Al Qaeda umbrella cease in the UK?

If Britain, pulls out of all Muslim countries and ceases to support Israel, it wouldn't be seen as an enemy of Islam. If they withdraw troops, they will always support Israel anyway.

If you read what al-Qaida say, their main reason for attacking Britain is because of their role in the coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm a British citizen so I wouldn't like to see bombings in Britain.

But I think if British troops are pulled out of those countries, the threat will diminish, because al-Qaida say they only want to attack Britain because of it's support of the U.S. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Al-Qaida themselves made a mockery of Bush' claim al-Qaida attacked the U.S. because they hate their freedom.

Al-Qaida once asked if they had launched 9/11 because they hated the wests freedom, why had they not threatened to attack Sweden? Because they have no hostile foreign policy to Muslims. It's very simple.

Al-Qaida attacked them because of their support of Israel, which has caused much more misery and pain to Muslims in Palestine than 9/11 did.


When the British and the Americans leave Iraq, what is the way forward for that country?

The way forward is defined by the coalition as Iraq becoming a democracy. In other words a pro-U.S. administration. I think the way forward would be for Iraq to become an Islamic state, governed only by Sharia law.

Was 9/11 justified? Did America ask for it?

Islamic scholars have given different opinions on 9/11. The majority condemned it, while others said it was permitted due to the U.S. support of Israel, in its crimes against Muslims in Palestine. I think 9/11 cannot be justified.

For the U.S. to support Israel's oppression of Muslims and not expect any form of response shows how arrogant and stupid they had become.


Do you believe that kuffars have the right to live in Saudi Arabia (or any Islamic land) with you? If so is there any laws or ways they should adhere to and if kuffars have no right to live in Saudi Arabia, why not?

This is a complex issue which in all honesty I'm not qualified to answer. If you visit an Islamic website called www.islamqa.com you can ask a qualified Islamic scholar on this issue, and he will give you a comprehensive reply. I'm not a scholar and therefore I'm unable to answer that fully.

Are you a Liverpool supporter by any chance?

This question I find utterly offensive. I'm from Nottingham, I'm not into football but I think Nottingham Forest's logo is still the best. Laughing
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fromtheuk wrote:
By the way, I think after the initial invasion polls indicated most of Britain supported it, it's only when things went pear-shaped, support for the invasion declined.


To be fair, it was a very slim majority - something like 51 or 52 percent. And this was after the government had lied through their teeth about Saddam being a real threat to the world with his imaginary Mass Weapons of Destruction. Not only that, but the majority of the media were fully in favour of it and gave very selective information and biased editorials on the matter. Rupert Murdoch for one admitted that all his papers were doing this because he fully supported the invasion. Of mainstream papers, only 2 or 3 were presenting information that might persuade their readers that the invasion might not be such a clever idea. The few people I spoke to at the time who supported the war were daft old codgers who believed everything 'The Sun sez!" When they detailed why they supported it they gave reasons like helping the poor people of Iraq and saving the world from Saddam. They were idiots, yes, but well meaning idiots mostly.


Quote:

Are you a Liverpool supporter by any chance?

This question I find utterly offensive. I'm from Nottingham..


Laughing
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bejarano-korea



Joined: 13 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fromtheuk wrote:
I'll try and answer your questions:

I would like to ask you some questions? I have now read all 11 pages I'm British also, by the way

You know the vast majority of the people of the UK were against the invasion of Iraq, are they also pagans and kuffars and are deserving of the atrocities of 7/7 for example?

Well most of Britain are not Muslim, but are barely Christian in name. So they are kuffar, which is the plural term for non-Muslim. I don't believe 7/7 was a permissible act, so I don't wish to see that repeated. By the way, I think after the initial invasion polls indicated most of Britain supported it, it's only when things went pear-shaped, support for the invasion declined.

Once the British armed forces leave Iraq, should any future bombings under the Al Qaeda umbrella cease in the UK?

If Britain, pulls out of all Muslim countries and ceases to support Israel, it wouldn't be seen as an enemy of Islam. If they withdraw troops, they will always support Israel anyway.

If you read what al-Qaida say, their main reason for attacking Britain is because of their role in the coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm a British citizen so I wouldn't like to see bombings in Britain.

But I think if British troops are pulled out of those countries, the threat will diminish, because al-Qaida say they only want to attack Britain because of it's support of the U.S. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Al-Qaida themselves made a mockery of Bush' claim al-Qaida attacked the U.S. because they hate their freedom.

Al-Qaida once asked if they had launched 9/11 because they hated the wests freedom, why had they not threatened to attack Sweden? Because they have no hostile foreign policy to Muslims. It's very simple.

Al-Qaida attacked them because of their support of Israel, which has caused much more misery and pain to Muslims in Palestine than 9/11 did.


When the British and the Americans leave Iraq, what is the way forward for that country?

The way forward is defined by the coalition as Iraq becoming a democracy. In other words a pro-U.S. administration. I think the way forward would be for Iraq to become an Islamic state, governed only by Sharia law.

Was 9/11 justified? Did America ask for it?

Islamic scholars have given different opinions on 9/11. The majority condemned it, while others said it was permitted due to the U.S. support of Israel, in its crimes against Muslims in Palestine. I think 9/11 cannot be justified.

For the U.S. to support Israel's oppression of Muslims and not expect any form of response shows how arrogant and stupid they had become.


Do you believe that kuffars have the right to live in Saudi Arabia (or any Islamic land) with you? If so is there any laws or ways they should adhere to and if kuffars have no right to live in Saudi Arabia, why not?

This is a complex issue which in all honesty I'm not qualified to answer. If you visit an Islamic website called www.islamqa.com you can ask a qualified Islamic scholar on this issue, and he will give you a comprehensive reply. I'm not a scholar and therefore I'm unable to answer that fully.

Are you a Liverpool supporter by any chance?

This question I find utterly offensive. I'm from Nottingham, I'm not into football but I think Nottingham Forest's logo is still the best. Laughing


I don't know what polls are out around that time of the invasion that stated the British public supported the war in Iraq, but everyone I spoke to knew that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of destruction after 10 years of sanctions where the Iraqi people couldn't feed themselves, we all knew we were being sold a crock and thats why 2 million people marched in London and half of Tony Blairs cabinet resigned! As for polls, we all know the people in power can bring out polls and massage statistics and facts and get them to say what they want.

BDJW (the prat you have been sparring with on here) tried to pass off that '66% of ALL MUSLIMS IN THE UK THOUGHT 7/7 WAS A GOVERMENT CONSPIRACY PLOT AGAINST ISLAM ' Now we found out Channel 4 who conducted the survey asked 500 Muslims, probably got some spotty work experience kid to stand outside Finsbury Park Mosque and built a poll around the more extreme elements, nowhere near a proper cross section of opinion of Muslims in the UK but it is being sold as such!

I rarely disagree with bigbird on anything but I think you'll find most people were against the invasion of Iraq and knew they were being lied to.

As for the Israel question, anyone who knows the history behind knows the British messed up, gave in to terrorism which America was complict in 1948 (oh the irony!) and has been a mess ever since. My personal view is that the state of Israel is now a reality that is never going to be erased.
You seem like an intelligent guy so I will ask you this, as odious as the Israeli state is (and it is, no doubt about it in my opinion) is it a realistic long term aim of instead of banishing Israel, what the Islamic world as a whole should be aiming for is that the Arab-Islamic population in that country should be getting like an equal deal and for its neighbours (The Lebanon) not to get terrorized every 5 years? Because, Israel is now an organic state and the reality of the situation is that it i never going to pack up and go away and I will give you my opinion on why this is the case.

When you say Islam is a religion of peace compared to Christianity, you are absolutley right. Christianity has 'offed' more people than any other faith which include such methods as concentration camps, two H bombs, 7 European empires in Africa and 6 in the Americas. It is a no brainer that Christianity is a bloodthirsty religion historically and if you look at killing and murder scoreboard, Christianity is well up in the lead with no close contenders.

It is a small victory for the insurgents if the US military leaves Iraq but it is naive to claim total victory at this moment when you know that the nations of the west and thus Christianity have no qualms about nuking the whole of the middle east and turning it all into glass. Who wins then? if terrorist acts carry on in the UK/US because western countries support the odious Israeli regime, do you not think nuclear armageddon is not a reality for the middle east if attacks on the west do not stop?

I'm going to read www.islamqa.com and discuss Muslims living in Christian countries because I think thats a more interesting debate than the invasion of Iraq/ support of Israel because in my opinion thats a pretty black and white issue. But that will have to wait till tomorrow. Smile

Forest? Shocked No wonder you are not holding your hand up to that one!
Cool
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bejarano-korea wrote:
I rarely disagree with bigbird on anything but I think you'll find most people were against the invasion of Iraq and knew they were being lied to.


Razz

Like you, I found that most Brits I knew at the time were quite strongly against the war. But could that be because of our age-group/educational background? Monkeys who believe everything they read in the Daily Mail and The Sun tend to just go along with whatever they're spoon fed. Perhaps like me, you prefer not to spend too much time in the company of such people.

But 51-52 % for was the stat I recall reading at the time. And frankly, I thought that was not bad at all, considering we were being fed a load of lies and that nearly all the newspapers were trying to drum up public opinion for the war. The fact that nearly 50% of the population still didn't buy all the crap they were being dished up makes me proud, quite frankly.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But 51-52 % for was the stat I recall reading at the time.


According to the BBC, it was higher than that...

Quote:
When the war began four years ago, two-thirds of Britons backed involvement, but the poll shows a marked decrease in support.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6467147.stm

And it should also be pointed out that, in the election that followed the onset of the war, something around 70% of the electorate voted for pro-war parties.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:

And it should also be pointed out that, in the election that followed the onset of the war, something around 70% of the electorate voted for pro-war parties.


That means bugger all. It's a two horse race. It's not like there were any viable alternatives, as there were in Spain.
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Satori



Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know it's odd, this filth sometimes talks like he's trying to reason with people, you know, get out of Israel and we'll stop bombing your cities, that is reason, that presumes that the listener is supposed to consider the statement in a reasonable way and respond with reason. He complains about poor treatment of Muslims in Brittain, and appeals to our reason there too. Then, on the other hand, he states that nothing short of total Islamic domination of the world will actually be satisfactory to him. And unfortunately this peice of human excrement who posted the OP is NOT that much of a radical, there are millions like him. And they all gave up the right to any kind of reasonable consideration or treatment and long long time ago. Islam has declared war on the west, supported fully in thier holy book, and the time for reasoning is well past.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big_Bird wrote:
On the other hand wrote:

And it should also be pointed out that, in the election that followed the onset of the war, something around 70% of the electorate voted for pro-war parties.


That means bugger all. It's a two horse race. It's not like there were any viable alternatives, as there were in Spain.


Two points...

1. The Liberal Democrats opposed the war, if I'm not mistaken. Why were they not a viable alternative?

2. If anti-war sentiment in the UK really was that deep, I have to think that there would have been a revolt in the Labour Party, the party that had the strongest anti-war contingent(out of the main two). Thatcher was brought down by her own party over Europe, as you might recall.

My own impression is that most Britons oppose the war in an off-hand sort of a way, but don't really care enough to do anything about it. Sorry if that sounds cyncial, but nothing I've seen of British political behavior in the past four years makes me think otherwise.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Big_Bird wrote:
On the other hand wrote:

And it should also be pointed out that, in the election that followed the onset of the war, something around 70% of the electorate voted for pro-war parties.


That means bugger all. It's a two horse race. It's not like there were any viable alternatives, as there were in Spain.


Two points...

1. The Liberal Democr
ts opposed the war, if I'm not mistaken. Why were they not a viable alternative?

2. If anti-war sentiment in the UK really was that deep, I have to think that there would have been a revolt in the Labour Party, the party that had the strongest anti-war contingent(out of the main two). Thatcher was brought down by her own party over Europe, as you might recall.

My own impression is that most Britons oppose the war in an off-hand sort of a way, but don't really care enough to do anything about it. Sorry if that sounds cyncial, but nothing I've seen of British political behavior in the past four years makes me think otherwise.


No, the Liberal Democrats are not considered a viable alternative. Ideally, I would support them. In practice, however, a vote for the Lib Dems is no vote at all, unless you're prepared to risk giving the election to the Tories. That's the way it is. People have learnt the lesson of the 80s where giving their vote to the Lib Dems meant not voting against the Tory party. If we had a better voting system, like the preference voting of Australia, then people wouldn't be so scared to vote their way.

There were a lot of anti-war MPs in the labour party, and they did a lot of grumbling. But everyone knows that the Tories would have done it anyway. So the labour leadership knows there is not an alternative party, willing to oppose the war. So they didn't have too much concern for opinion in that regard. Also, no-one is prepared to go against America. That's the way it is. So a British government needs much less support from its people than an American one. But you're right, the majority were staunchly against the war, they'd have had to have pulled out now. But I also think that it's the promise of withdrawal that allows it to go on as it currently is.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you say Islam is a religion of peace compared to Christianity, you are absolutley right. Christianity has 'offed' more people than any other faith which include such methods as concentration camps, two H bombs, 7 European empires in Africa and 6 in the Americas. It is a no brainer that Christianity is a bloodthirsty religion historically and if you look at killing and murder scoreboard, Christianity is well up in the lead with no close contenders.


Your reference to concentration camps is presumably meant to infer that the Nazis were 'Christian fundamentalists', and that the holocaust was carried out in the name of Christianity, rather than the quasi-Pagan racial ideology of Nazism. Likewise, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, were not carried out for 'Christian' reasons or with biblical justification, but were rather the end result of brutal war between two Pacific powers.

Something does not become Christian, Buddhist or any other kind of religious warfare simply because it is carried out by people of a nation who are nominally of that religion. It becomes religious warfare when the actors involved explicitly state their justifications, motives and goals on a religious basis, and that is what all Islamic terror groups do, and is why they are referred to as such. Moreover, many of these Islamic terror groups are supported by numerous Islamic clerics who exalt violent Jihad, encourage hatred of infidels and advocate the domination of the world under Islam.

This is a fact which you seem unable to grasp, and so instead present absurd examples of 'Christian' terrorism which do not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
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fromtheuk



Joined: 31 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As regards Sad-Bore-ee - Resorting to verbal abuse is not a sign of good manners. English clearly isn't your first language, because your last post demonstrates you had difficulty understanding what I had written.

Hmm.....I don't remember planning world domination over the last few days nor have I declared war on anyone. You ought to stand in the corner of the classroom with your hands on your head, you're a foul mouthed, badly behaved child, now go wash your mouth out before you post your next useless post.

Your deafening silence as regards why the west is 'under threat' speaks volumes. You ought to face up to the crimes of your government and address them. Burying your head in the sand will not make the problem go away.

bejarano-korea - 2 points. 1) Israel - It has nukes and support of the west. It has existed for just a few decades, not long in historical terms. It is surrounded by Muslim countries, all of which hate them.

I think the neocons on this forum would never admit it publically, but there is no way Israel can sustain itself over the long term. It relies mostly on the U.S.

So from an Islamic perspective Israel can never be recognized nor can it be accepted as a state. It doesn't mean there has to be a holocaust, but all of Israel is Muslim Palestinian land, and Muslims will never rest until they regain all of that land, every single bit of it.

So effectively Israel will not exist, any Jews who have actual historical links to that land as opposed to being Jews which settled there after the state of Israel was created, will pay the non-Muslim tax, and live as citizens under the protection of an Islamic state.

When Israel does cease to exist, if it was an all out war, then, sadly for the Israeli's, most of them will perish.

2) If the west decided to nuke the middle east, that would be interesting. I personally don't think that would happen. Even though the Pakistan government is currently with the coalition against 'terrorism', if we had a crazier world situation where the west was literally wiping countries off the map, don't forget Pakistan has nukes, so I don't think it's realistic the west would wipe out whole countries.

That would be madness, the result would be just more terrorism anyway, but if we imagine your scenario, terrorism would be state sponsored more than ever before.
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Satori



Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fromtheuk wrote:
As regards Sad-Bore-ee - Resorting to verbal abuse is not a sign of good manners. English clearly isn't your first language, because your last post demonstrates you had difficulty understanding what I had written.

Hmm.....I don't remember planning world domination over the last few days nor have I declared war on anyone. You ought to stand in the corner of the classroom with your hands on your head, you're a foul mouthed, badly behaved child, now go wash your mouth out before you post your next useless post.

Oh really, I could have sworn it was you who wrote this ...
fromtheuk wrote:
Come the Islamic revolution, you ought to be whipped in public for your insolence!

Read the news, 'extremism' is getting more popular everyday. So, one day when you get up in the morning, don't be surprised to find your nation, wherever you are from, with the suffix 'istan' after it's name.

You and your associates will be forced to submit to Islamic law.

What a fool you are, can't even remember what you have actually been saying here. Well, you are probably a non muslim troll just having some fun because no one could actually be as moronic as the character you have created. If you're real you are very pathetic creature. If you represent the young face of Islam then Islam is in big trouble. I think we in the enlightened and morally righteous west can rest easy without fear of the "great muslim take over" any time soon. You guys are too busy killing each other right now to bother with larger plans, and most of you are living in poverty too, I guess that's what you get for following a backwards bronze age death cult.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bird wrote:

Quote:
No, the Liberal Democrats are not considered a viable alternative. Ideally, I would support them. In practice, however, a vote for the Lib Dems is no vote at all, unless you're prepared to risk giving the election to the Tories.


I understand what you're saying about vote-splitting. However, the argument doesn't really apply when we're analyzing the behaviour of the UK electorate as a whole.

A Liberal vote helps to elect Tories only if the rest of the anti-war people had decided en masse not to vote Liberal. But you still need to explain why the rest of the anti-war people had decided not to vote Liberal.

If everyone who was anti-war had said "Well, I'm fed up with both major parties being pro-war, so I'm voting Liberal", then there would have been no need to worry about vote-splitting.
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Satori



Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the liberals have an anti war policy but are unsatisfactory to the mainstream votrers on other issues.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think also, a lot of the anti-war people assume the damage has already been done, and that leaving Iraq will have to be done properly, to minimise any more damage. Voting against Labour would just punish them for something already done which can not be undone.

You also have to understand the mindset of the British voter. We've had a two party system for so long, no 'anti-war voter' would be confident that other 'anti-war voters' would dare to risk their vote for Liberal, and risk letting in the dreadful Tories.
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