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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: what American conservatives say... |
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when they're really free to speak (I refuse to put the word 'think' in there).
[url]
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2766040.ece[/url]
Highlights for me:
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| I lie on the beach with Hillary-Ann, a chatty, scatty 35-year-old Californian designer.... "A few of these prominent liberals who are trying to demoralise the country," she says. "Just take a couple of these anti-war people off to the gas chamber for treason to show, if you try to bring down America at a time of war, that's what you'll get." She squints at the sun and smiles. " Then things'll change." |
this one is also pretty good:
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| Podhoretz .... is a bristling grey ball of aggression, here to declare that the Iraq war has been "an amazing success." He waves his fist and declaims: "There were WMD, and they were shipped to Syria ... This picture of a country in total chaos with no security is false. It has been a triumph. It couldn't have gone better." He wants more wars, and fast. He is "certain" Bush will bomb Iran, and " thank God" for that. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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there is some evidence that Saddam's WMDs were shipped to Syria.
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Saddam Sent WMD to Syria, Former General Alleges
By Sherrie Gossett
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
February 02, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - A former Iraqi general alleges that in June 2002 Saddam Hussein transported weapons of mass destruction out of the country to Syria aboard several refitted commercial jets, under the pretense of conducting a humanitarian mission for flood victims.
That's one of several dramatic claims made in the book by former Iraqi General Georges Sada: "Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein." Since the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Sada has served as the spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and continues to serve as national security advisor. He is the former vice marshal of the Iraqi Air Force. Sada was interviewed at the headquarters of Cybercast News Service on Jan. 30.
Sada contends that Saddam took advantage of a June 4, 2002, irrigation dam collapse in Zeyzoun, Syria, to ship the weapons under cover of an aid project to the flooded region.
"[Saddam] said 'Okay, Iraq is going to do an air bridge to help Syria," Sada recounted. Two commercial jets, a 747 and 727, were converted to cargo jets, in order to carry raw materials and equipment related to WMD projects, Sada said. The passenger seats, galleys, toilets and storage compartments were removed and new flooring was installed, he claimed. Hundreds of tons of chemicals were reportedly included in the cargo shipments. [See Video]
"They used to do two sorties a day," said Sada. "Fifty-six sorties were done between Baghdad and Damascus."
Sada said he obtained the information from two Iraq Airways captains who were reportedly flying the sorties. "They came immediately and they told me," said Sada.
This is not the first time that the possibility of a transfer of WMDs from Iraq to Syria has been raised. Two years ago, U.S. Sen. Pat Roberts, (R-Kan), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence acknowledged that "there is some concern that shipments of WMD went to Syria." No details were forthcoming. The claims have also been made by the U.S.-based Reform Party of Syria. |
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200602%5CSPE20060202a.html
I don't think the US ought to bomb Iran , not right now anyway- but it is also true that Iran has been enaged in a low level war against the US for a long time.
So if Iran has been out to get the US then it wouldn't be like they were innocent or didn't have it coming would it?
If liberals think that Iran is just a peaceful naiton minding their own business then they are pretty much divorced from reality too. Wouldn't you say? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| If liberals think that Iran is just a peaceful naiton minding their own business then they are pretty much divorced from reality too. Wouldn't you say? |
I'll address you rationally for one moment, it befits the above post, devoid as it was of your usualy rrrrrrrhetoric.
Let's turn your phrase around just for the sake of equity.
"If conservatives think that America is just a peaceful nation minding their own business then they are pretty much divorced from reality too. Wouldn't you say? "
I think it applies and the right course of action is to not try might vs might or even WHAT I THINK RIGHT vs WHAT I THINK MORE RIGHT. It is encumbent upon members of the world community, LEADDDDDERRRRRS, to lead and show us all the plethora of peaceful options, dialogue and reconciliation that is possible.
Instead we get more orders for tanks, missles, nukes, aircraft carriers and more rhetoric of defiance and HE SAID SHE SAID, SHE DID HE DID. Like children. I condemn both.
DD |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, there's some fair points there, but do you really condemn Iran and the US equally? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, there's some fair points there, but do you really condemn Iran and the US equally? |
Mack,
I try. That is all I can say. I realize I exist in a space of now and past and present and future hopefully to be. From that, I'm illuminated by thought that sometimes seems less grown and more given.
I understand your vantage point and question. But I think at the end of the day, it is best that we doubt ourselves but try try try to find the "human" way.
You'll get plenty of bloodhounds on this message board sniffing out potential victims, decrying their inhumanity. I try not to. I look and see people and think of the govt we must out do , not the innocent thousands our technology is able to evapourate.
EVIL? Yes, it exists in the sense of not that which can be imagined but of what can be done. Still, the U.S. policy of imagining evil and especially the doing, in their own stylized way and preventing it before any sign of its sprouting -- is revolting. It is a kind of moral universe which prevents life, diversity.....
Sorry for the typing quickly and off shoots . Just trying to be fully heartfelt and genuine in my answer.
DD |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Ha ha DD honestly I don't know what you're talking about. Did you actually find some good drugs in this country? Thought they didn't exist here.
My point was that the US has done plenty worthy of condemnation but that Iran is much worse and much more malicious in its intentions. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| mack4289 wrote: |
Ha ha DD honestly I don't know what you're talking about. Did you actually find some good drugs in this country? Thought they didn't exist here.
My point was that the US has done plenty worthy of condemnation but that Iran is much worse and much more malicious in its intentions. |
That's what I understood, and it seemed very clear to me that that is also what DD understood. And he gave a proper response to your question. Read it again when you've sobered.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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I'll address you rationally for one moment, it befits the above post, devoid as it was of your usualy rrrrrrrhetoric.
Let's turn your phrase around just for the sake of equity.
"If conservatives think that America is just a peaceful nation minding their own business then they are pretty much divorced from reality too. Wouldn't you say? "
I think it applies and the right course of action is to not try might vs might or even WHAT I THINK RIGHT vs WHAT I THINK MORE RIGHT. It is encumbent upon members of the world community, LEADDDDDERRRRRS, to lead and show us all the plethora of peaceful options, dialogue and reconciliation that is possible.
Instead we get more orders for tanks, missles, nukes, aircraft carriers and more rhetoric of defiance and HE SAID SHE SAID, SHE DID HE DID. Like children. I condemn both.
DD |
Iran has been at the US and not the other way around . Clinton apologizes and even lifted some sanctions.
This may be another put a dime in the Joo box baby moment but until you can answer it don't complain:
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Shipment of high explosives intercepted in Iraq
Most sophisticated of roadside bombs reportedly coming from Iran |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8829929/
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9/11 Commission Finds Ties Between al-Qaeda and Iran
Senior U.S. officials have told TIME that the 9/11 Commission's report will cite evidence suggesting that the 9/11 hijackers had previously passed through Iran |
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,664967,00.html
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| The American military said Tuesday that it had credible evidence linking Iranians and their Iraqi associates, detained here in raids last week, to criminal activities, including attacks against American forces. Evidence also emerged that some detainees had been involved in shipments of weapons to illegal armed groups in Iraq. |
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F0061EF635550C748EDDAB0994DE404482
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| On June 25, 1996, Iran again attacked America at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, exploding a huge truck bomb that devastated Khobar Towers and murdered 19 U.S. airmen as they rested in their dormitory. These young heroes spent every day risking their lives enforcing the no-fly zone over southern Iraq; that is, protecting Iraqi Shiites from their own murderous tyrant. When I visited this horrific scene soon after the attack, I watched dozens of dedicated FBI agents combing through the wreckage in 120-degree heat, reverently handling the human remains of our brave young men. More than 400 of our Air Force men and women were wounded in this well-planned attack, and I was humbled by their courage and spirit. I later met with the families of our lost Khobar heroes and promised that we would do whatever was necessary to bring these terrorists to American justice. The courage and dignity these wonderful families have consistently exemplified has been one of the most powerful experiences of my 26 years of public service. |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003518
Iran responsible for 1983 Marine barracks bombing, judge rules [
Friday, May 30, 2003 Posted: 11:14 PM EDT (0314 GMT)
Marines search through the rubble for their missing comrades after the 1983 barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon.
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| WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Iran is responsible for the 1983 suicide bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen, a U.S. District Court judge ruled Friday. |
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/
Amir Taheri: Khomeinists hammering new strategy to oust 'Great Satan'
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But at almost exactly the same time, militants from some 40 countries spread across the globe were trekking to Tehran for a 10-day "revolutionary jamboree" in which "a new strategy to confront the American Great Satan" will be hammered out. The event is scheduled to start on February 1 to mark the 25th anniversary of the return to Iran from exile of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the "Islamic Revolution".
It is not clear how many militants will attend, but the official media promise a massive turnout to underline the Islamic Republic's position as the "throbbing heart of world resistance to American arrogance."
The guest list reads like a who-is-who of global terror.
In fact, most of the organisations attending the event, labelled "Ten-Days of Dawn", are branded by the US and some European Union members as terrorist outfits. For more than two decades, Tehran has been a magnet for militant groups from many different national and ideological backgrounds.
The Islamic Republic's hospitality cuts across even religious divides. Militant Sunni organisations, including two linked to Al Qaida, Ansar al-Islam (Companions of Islam) and Hizb Islami (The Islamic Party), enjoy Iranian hospitality.
They are joined by Latin American guerrilla outfits, clandestine Irish organisations, Basque and Corsican separatists, and a variety of leftist groups from Spartacists to Trotskyites and Guevarists. Tehran is the only capital where all the Palestinian militant movements have offices and, in some cases, training and financial facilities. |
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/04/01/28/109235.html
U.S.: Top Iran officials ordering bombs to Iraq
Orders to send armor-piercing bombs came from highest levels, official says
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17097658/
They support Hizzbollah who counterfeits US money and sells drugs.
They might also be behind the death squads in Iraq and inciting the violence there.
The regime also teaches hate and incites violence. One of the biggest reasons for terror is that mideast regimes teach hate and incite violence..
As for Al Qaeda 70,000 trained in terror camps in the 1990s. That was while the US was protecting muslims in Somalia , Bosnia and Kurdistan.
It was also while the US was trying to bring peace between the Israelis and the Palestinian side. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| but that Iran is much worse and much more malicious in its intentions. |
Well America's intention is to totally dominate the world and bring it into line with thier way of thinking as much as they possibly can, "american century" and all that. You can't aim much higher than that. Plus American has actually done things, lots of things, in the world. Yet Iran is worse becuase it hold "malicious intentions"? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
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| but that Iran is much worse and much more malicious in its intentions. |
Well America's intention is to totally dominate the world and bring it into line with thier way of thinking as much as they possibly can, "american century" and all that. You can't aim much higher than that. Plus American has actually done things, lots of things, in the world. Yet Iran is worse becuase it hold "malicious intentions"? |
The US intentions are not to dominate the world , it is too protect the US and try to put the US in the best position possible. Like most nations.
The Project for a New American Century aims for the US to:
Maintain military superiority
Not to unilaterally disarm .
Not enter into arms agreements that restrict US miltiary capabilities without anything in return from other nations.
Not to put its faith in organizations like the UN that have no interest in the security or well being of the US.
Why would the US be wrong for for doing so?
Anyway what has the US done that is so bad ? |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Anyway what has the US done that is so bad ? |
Just off the top of my head, the CIA activity in South America sinse the 50's ... um, invading countries on false pretenses and lying about it to it's population, mandated torture ... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
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| Anyway what has the US done that is so bad ? |
Just off the top of my head, the CIA activity in South America sinse the 50's ... um, invading countries on false pretenses and lying about it to it's population, mandated torture ... |
I will give you the CIA stuff in South America in the 1950s
As for Iraq Saddam never gave up his war. So he had it coming.
Didn't he try to kill a US president?
Didn't he shoot as US planes?
Didn't he continue to threaten Kuwait after the first gulf war?
Was Saddam in compliance with demands that he dismarm. No he was not. And he never intended to be.
(Just for the record Saddam was as great a killer as Idi Amin)
In fact anything the US does to force the Bathists , the Khomeni followers or Al Qaeda/ Jihad international to give up their war is ok.
Does the US act worse than other nations during war? No?
Was the US wrong to fight the cold war ? No.
More often than not the US has been correct.
I would hope US conservatives and neo liberals would answer the way I did. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Anyway what has the US done that is so bad ? |
Just off the top of my head, the CIA activity in South America sinse the 50's ... um, invading countries on false pretenses and lying about it to it's population, mandated torture ... |
I will give you the CIA stuff in South America in the 1950s
As for Iraq Saddam never gave up his war. So he had it coming.
Didn't he try to kill a US president?
Didn't he shoot as US planes?
Didn't he continue to threaten Kuwait after the first gulf war?
Was Saddam in compliance with demands that he dismarm. No he was not. And he never intended to be.
(Just for the record Saddam was as great a killer as Idi Amin)
In fact anything the US does to force the Bathists , the Khomeni followers or Al Qaeda/ Jihad international to give up their war is ok.
Does the US act worse than other nations during war? No?
Was the US wrong to fight the cold war ? No.
More often than not the US has been correct.
I would hope US conservatives and neo liberals would answer the way I did. |
Saddam was a bad guy. Granted. A very bad guy? A credible threat? Yes.
None of this excuses the politically driven invasion of Iraq, nor should it overshadow the politically driven intel gathering conducted by the NSA, DoD, and CIA in the run-up to the war. It was a colossal failure of the Republican party's ability to conduct a competent and effective foreign policy, to say nothing of morals.
The Cold War was necessary. Carter was a p***y. The arms race was necessary. Arming Bin Laden and the Afghani mujahedin in the 80's was necessary. Supporting Hussein in the 80's was necessary. Subverting the Iranian gov't is necessary. Iran-Contra was treason. Operation Iraqi freedom is one of the greatest disasters in the history of American foreign policy. And so on and so forth...
Liberals are 100% correct in greeting just about anything the gov't of the United States says or does until January 20, 2009, with extreme skepticism. After that, only a moderate degree of skepticism. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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It just kills me that up until the moment invaded kuwait, shot a US planes, defied sanctions and didn't roll over like a biatch after he lost the war, he was America's sweetheart in the middle east.
Let's take a look at some of the things he did while he had US suppourt.
- Instigated a war against Iran that cost hundreds of thousands of lives
- Gassed the Kurds. Funny I didn't hear of that justifying his overthrow at the time.
Hundreds of thousands of muslims dying at the hands of Hussein, no biggie. The possible threat that he may have weapons and may give them to terrorists to harm Americans........time to invade boys.
Now, I'm no bleeding heart liberal. I understand real politik. But COME ON. Iraqis are not stupid people! The had/have one of the higest literacy rates in the entire region. You really expect them not to care about the hypocracy of America's position on this?
Sure they hated Saddam, but they also knew where his money and suppourt came from. If your brother or father was gassed or sent of to war in Iran and didn't come back or came back horribly scarred would you just sit back and warmly welcome a regime that was PARTLY responsible. Remember when Bush 1 hinted that it was time for an uprising to finish off Saddam? People rose up. And then, under the nose of the entire American military, Bush 1 let Saddam just go to town and slaughter them. Granted they may have been regional and strategic considerations for this but you can't just expect people to bend over and get reamed up the as$ time and time again. Seriously, are there any numbers on the casualties Saddam inflicted after that uprising? Knowing him it must have been massive. All under the noses of the western powers and with their tacit approval. Then we just expect them to welcome us with open arms....unfuking believable. Turn the tables and we would expect any western nation to do exactly what Iraqis are doing now.
Our capability to tar others as somehow inhuman or with intrinsically inferior traits is unbelievable. Enter an Americans house without permission and he is legally entitled to blow your fu#king head off. Yet an Iraqi, with all the indiginities they have suffered, are somehow supposed to roll over and take it up the poop chute.
"oh, why do they hate ussssssssss?" 
"they are just a bunch of fuking animals, that's why."
I don't think America is the great satan. It's a wonderful place with wonderful ideals for the most part. But come on, other people half way around the world are just as human and if you fuk with them you better be prepared for the blow back. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Saddam was a bad guy. Granted. A very bad guy? A credible threat? Yes.
None of this excuses the politically driven invasion of Iraq, nor should it overshadow the politically driven intel gathering conducted by the NSA, DoD, and CIA in the run-up to the war. It was a colossal failure of the Republican party's ability to conduct a competent and effective foreign policy, to say nothing of morals. |
That may all be true. It is also true that:
Saddam never gave up his war.
Saddam was a credible threat if he wasn't contained.
The mideast as it was was a threat to the US.
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| The Cold War was necessary. Carter was a p***y. The arms race was necessary. Arming Bin Laden and the Afghani mujahedin in the 80's was necessary. Supporting Hussein in the 80's was necessary. Subverting the Iranian gov't is necessary. Iran-Contra was treason. Operation Iraqi freedom is one of the greatest disasters in the history of American foreign policy. And so on and so forth... |
Overall the US won the cold war its wasn't always easy. And as I said 9-11 showed that the mideast needed to be taken care of. |
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