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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
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| point: And to really upset you, God gave the land to the Jews. |
This kind of invalidates everything else you have to say, it shows us you're completely potty. Anyone who believes the bible is legally binding real estate agreement simply can't be taken seriously in a political discussion. |
Stating that God sanctions a real estate deal based on the Hebrews who were a coalition group of various Semites that united under the leader Abraham is kind of ridiculous. Using that logic God ordained the holocaust so Israel could be created. I think people should leave God out of this. Remember, the Old Testament also believes that the Earth was created in 7 days and God rested and also the Earth is about 6000 years old.
As far as the communist versus fascist argument, the Bundists or socialist miskalim Jews had universal views that fascists did not have and they were not communist per se. Why do you think most Jews were on the Left? Leftist thinking permits equality among all people rather than someone using an interpretation of God and religion to suppress a person just because he was born Jewish or Protestant or what have you, and Hitler was a fascist and many of the South Africans who allied with Israelis had a pro-Nazi past which cannot be hidden. The Jewish Left did not cooperate with the fascists, the Zionists did. This including cooperating with the Czar while he was killing Jews in pogroms using the excuse of suppressing the Left and there is the infamous Havara Agreement. So we can talk about Hajj Amin Al Husseini and he may get his karma but what about those who also have blood on their hands of other people including those who sacrificed other Jews in World War II.
As far as the Jews who fled Israel, it was not the fault of the Palestinians.
It also happened after the Palestinians were ethnic cleansed. One happened first and one does not make the other one right. It is like blaming Canada for what the U.S. might have done. Recently, a Jewish family got compensation for a hotel seized from them in Egypt. It is one thing to say the refugees cannot be repatriated because Israel cannot absorb them and another to say some form of compensation should be in order. That is taking responsibility for what was done to those refugees.
Anyway, peace would benefit both sides. Back to that God thing most Israelis are not so religious and do not take religion so literally. Simply put their grandparents fled Europe not because they felt God gave them a land. They had to get out of Dodge and encountered hostile Arabs that they had to fight because there wasn't much choice for them expect to do so. You make it seem there was this blind conviction among Jews in the birth of the nation. It was survival in a crazy world. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Location: Nearly in NK
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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adventurer:
Some of your comments seem much like what is found in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". You separation of Jews from Zionists is a tell tale sign.
I heard that same line from an old and ex friend who went to jail not long ago in Canada for hate crimes. Reinhard Mueller.
If you think leaving the religious aspect out will change anything you are living in a fool's paradise. |
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jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Location: you boys like mexico?
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
adventurer:
Some of your comments seem much like what is found in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". You separation of Jews from Zionists is a tell tale sign.
I heard that same line from an old and ex friend who went to jail not long ago in Canada for hate crimes. Reinhard Mueller.
If you think leaving the religious aspect out will change anything you are living in a fool's paradise. |
Being Jewish and being a Zionist are different. It is not anti-Semitic. You're revealing your zealotry, though. |
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Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Location: Above it all
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
I heard that same line from an old and ex friend who went to jail not long ago in Canada for hate crimes. Reinhard Mueller.
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Nice company you`ve been keeping. Very revealing. |
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Axl Rose

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Contrarian said previously that his grandmother was Jewish, making his mother a Jew, making him a Jew. I'm well aware of the fact that that's the way it works, but in my book, it makes you about as Jewish as I am Spanish (my grandmother was Spanish, but I have never stepped foot on Spain).
Plastic people are pathetic....plastic Paddies, plastic eyeties, plastic Spicks. Shoot 'em all, I say. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
adventurer:
Some of your comments seem much like what is found in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". You separation of Jews from Zionists is a tell tale sign.
I heard that same line from an old and ex friend who went to jail not long ago in Canada for hate crimes. Reinhard Mueller.
If you think leaving the religious aspect out will change anything you are living in a fool's paradise. |
I never read the Protocols. I have only read the words of the Jewish Left and religious Orthodox who accused the establishment of leaving them in the cold and cooperating with fascists. What does that have to do with the protocols. The Left was on the other side and had nothing to do with conspiracies. I am not religious. Leave religion out of it and let there be peace... You can't remove Judaism or Islam from the people, that is true, but no blood should be shed for Jerusalem. There must be some kind of entente. Read Jewish sources from the Left on what their views are on the Zionists role in World War II and what they didn't do. This has nothing to do with the protocols because the protocols weren't connected to World War II, and I haven't read them. Can you give me some facts.
The Havara Agreement is actually historically fact. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
| It means Israel is there, after winning several wars against tremendous odds, and the Islamic world is still braying "drive the Jews into the sea. Israel will do whatever it has to to survive and flourish. The Palestinians lost their right to "justice" ny idiotic intranigence over the last 60 years. |
Well, I've been reading this debate and trying to bite my tongue. This is one of my favourite debating topics here on this forum because I read up a great deal about it years ago, and have followed the situation ever since. But I decided to step back from this thread, as there are a few posters here who get rather over-excited whenever I join in, seemingly becoming more obsessed with me than the subject, and generally end up derailing interesting discussions with their adolescent nuttiness. And Adventurer, for one, was making some of the points I was going to make anyway.
However, contrarian, I can't let your assertion go unchallenged. Israel did not win against tremendous odds. This is another long ago debunked myth. Israeli historians themselves point out that in the founding wars it was in fact Israel as Goliath, and the Arabs as David, contrary to the popularly held belief. In 1948, the Israelis were extremely well prepared for the war, while the Arabs were not. They were well armed and resourced. Also, the Arabs leaders barked a lot, but when it came to the war, they didn't bother to send many soldiers. Israel did not face the daunting opposition that is often claimed.
This became increasingly clear in the 1980s after the publication of Sharett and Ben Gurion's memoirs. Also at that time the Israeli government released of thousands of declassified documents from the Israeli State Archives, which gave a very very different picture of the tiny budding nation fighting against overwhelming odds.
Again, come the 1967 war, Israel was not faced with 'tremendous odds.' Israel, once again, was in a much better position than her opponents. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
The adventurers revisionist history is quite stunning and more than a little ant-Semetic.
A well, the world is full of his "some of my good frieds ares Jews" types.
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contrarian, that is a scandalous slur on Adventure, who is by far one of the most civilised and good-natured posters on this forum. He is probably less prone to the 'isms' - sexism, racism etc - than the vast majority of posters here. Using the term anti-Semetic in such a frivolous way just devalues the term - in fact it's becoming more and more meaningless as people realise it's just a stick with which to beat critics of the Israeli foreign policy.
I actually think you should apologize to him. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
adventurer:
Some of your comments seem much like what is found in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". You separation of Jews from Zionists is a tell tale sign.
I heard that same line from an old and ex friend who went to jail not long ago in Canada for hate crimes. Reinhard Mueller.
If you think leaving the religious aspect out will change anything you are living in a fool's paradise. |
Contrarian, your comments above are unscientific. They are ad hominem attacks. I use historical precedent, Jewish sources from the Left, and even Zionist sources. Zionists and the Jewish Left are not uniform.
I hope you know that before you comment. Of course, I will separate Jews from Zionists since the majority of Jews prior to World War II were not Zionists and even those who are Zionists are not uniform in ideology. You are engaging in the stereotyping of the Jewish people and putting everyone in the Left in the Zionist camp when they were rivals of the Zionists? Zionists are not the same either. You had Chaim Weizman and David Ben gurion types on one side and you had Martin Buber and Judah Magnes on the other. This dynamic still exists.
How does that make historical sense. Many of the people in Poland who perished were certainly not Zionist. Some were, some were not. Do you actually know Jewish people? If you did, you would not have said that.
The fact that you want to defend the Jewish people from harm is noble.
The people need to live far from harm, but I believe peace should be eventually achieved. People don't believe in the status quo as much as before. You should know that. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| contrarian wrote: |
| It means Israel is there, after winning several wars against tremendous odds, and the Islamic world is still braying "drive the Jews into the sea. Israel will do whatever it has to to survive and flourish. The Palestinians lost their right to "justice" ny idiotic intranigence over the last 60 years. |
Well, I've been reading this debate and trying to bite my tongue. This is one of my favourite debating topics here on this forum because I read up a great deal about it years ago, and have followed the situation ever since. But I decided to step back from this thread, as there are a few posters here who get rather over-excited whenever I join in, seemingly becoming more obsessed with me than the subject, and generally end up derailing interesting discussions with their adolescent nuttiness. And Adventurer, for one, was making some of the points I was going to make anyway.
However, contrarian, I can't let your assertion go unchallenged. Israel did not win against tremendous odds. This is another long ago debunked myth. Israeli historians themselves point out that in the founding wars it was in fact Israel as Goliath, and the Arabs as David, contrary to the popularly held belief. In 1948, the Israelis were extremely well prepared for the war, while the Arabs were not. They were well armed and resourced. Also, the Arabs leaders barked a lot, but when it came to the war, they didn't bother to send many soldiers. Israel did not face the daunting opposition that is often claimed.
This became increasingly clear in the 1980s after the publication of Sharett and Ben Gurion's memoirs. Also at that time the Israeli government released of thousands of declassified documents from the Israeli State Archives, which gave a very very different picture of the tiny budding nation fighting against overwhelming odds.
Again, come the 1967 war, Israel was not faced with 'tremendous odds.' Israel, once again, was in a much better position than her opponents. |
Well, I used to think that the war was an amazing victory. However, that would not be necessarily the proper words to use. I would rather say that the Zionist leadership was brilliant in gathering together skilled people and military men and resources to build a strong fighting machine that was able to defeat those armies. Without the brilliance of the leadership, victory wouldn't have been had.
However, was the victory brilliant? I would dispute that. Why? I have to have good reasons to make such an assertion. I will do so.
King Abdul-Ilah/Abdullah I of Jordan has the strongest army under his command. He could have caused the most damage to what became the IDF. However, he secretly met with the Israeli side and indicated he did not want to destroy Israel.
Abdullah's forces did engage Jewish soldiers but only in a symbolic manner rather than using the full weight of their forces. That is extremely important in the 1948 war. I am not saying that saved Israel from defeat, but it definitely prevented extremely heavy casualties. The Egyptians were led by incompetent King Farouk who didn't have the proper weaponry for a war or a large army. The Syrians became independent in 1943 and didn't build a decent army to speak of...
It was a route of the Arab armies that actually tried to engage Jewish soldiers and not surprisingly so due to the incompetence, unpreparedness of the Arab side and King Abdullah's desire for a Greater Syria rather than defeating Israel.
The Egyptian Government teaches that 1973 was a brilliant Egyptian victory when that is just a myth, and there is a mythology behind the 1948 war. Korea has its myths as well. |
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pharflung
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Umm, are the Muslims going to pay off America's national debt? |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
I will do so.
King Abdul-Ilah/Abdullah I of Jordan has the strongest army under his command. He could have caused the most damage to what became the IDF. However, he secretly met with the Israeli side and indicated he did not want to destroy Israel.
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Jordan and Israel formed a covert alliance, and co-operated and connived to share the spoils of war - i.e. territory. The zionist revisionists regulaly neglect to mention that. It doesn't fit with their myth of the Israelis valiantly making a heroic stand against of sea of Arabs full of seething hatred of jews (hating them of course for their jewishness, and not the fact that they were invading, conquering, killing etc ).
I've also seen it suggested several times that one of the reasons the Arabs fought was because they resented Jordon's expansionism, so they were fighting not just the Israelis but also the Jordanian army. However, I've yet to see much convincing evidence of that. If someone can point me to some (either for or against) I'd be interested in looking at it. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Location: Nearly in NK
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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adventurer:
You might not like the religious aspect but many, if not most of the people in the dispute do. You are therefore stuck with it.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, allege a Jewish conspiracy to control the world. It dates back to pre-WWI Czarist sources. Basically it blames the Jews for such things as socialism, Marxism to be used as vehilces pg their control. These forgeries are quite popular in tha Arab world at present. Google it but be preparred for a lot of reading.
You cite "left wing" Jewish sources for saying that Zionism does not include all Jews. True to some degree, some of the far out Jewish sects say it is wrong to have a Jewsih government until the Messia comes. Other non religious Jews fing Zionism to be most inconvenient (eg Noam Chimpsky).
None of this changes the fact tje the vast majority of Jews are in fact Zionist. There are a lot of Christian Zionists. Mostly from the Evangelical community. The older "mainline Christian churches" have long been essentially anti-Semitic or again finding the Jews most incvonenient.
Were the Jews prepared for the 1948 war. Indeed they were, they had to be. Did they outnumber their Arab foes, Not by a factor of 100 to 1 or so. Were they better armed. No. The Brits, under Bevan, had made great efforts to keep weapons out of Jewish hands, The Britsh Nacy blokaded the coast and what weapons were in the hands of the Brits when they left, were largely turned over to the Arabs (except for those the Jews took in some well times raids based on information by British military. Britain even abstained on the UN Resolution to recognize Israel. (cowards or anti-Semite leadership) .
There were a lot of troops sent by Arabs into the former Madate. Egypt (including Captain Nasser), Iraq sent a large amount, Jordan took the old CIty and held it. The Arab Legion und Glubb Pasha (a Brit) held Nablus and the Road to Jerusalem.
Haj Amin al Husseini had found some Nazi remants to do some "contract work". His military deputy Kawukji (sp) was a nasty fellow who like to fight civilians and avoid armed forces.
The Arabs were probably more prepared for war - they wanted it. But they were very badly lead and as a general rule Arabs are lousy soldier. Indivudally as brave as the could be, but eseentially an illiterate undisciplined rabble.
They Jews on the other hand had a core of leaders who had fought ether with Orde Wingate or the Jewish Brigade on the side of the allies in WWII (while Husseini was in Nazi Germany). They also had a couple of hundred thousand who had survived the extermination camps. These people had seen and suffered the worst of the worst. They had no fear left.
They had nothing but the 2000 year prayer and dream. "next year in Jerusalem."
Many of them walked from the immigrant boats from Europe up the hills to attack Nablus, many without guns. |
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jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Location: you boys like mexico?
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
I will do so.
King Abdul-Ilah/Abdullah I of Jordan has the strongest army under his command. He could have caused the most damage to what became the IDF. However, he secretly met with the Israeli side and indicated he did not want to destroy Israel.
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Jordan and Israel formed a covert alliance, and co-operated and connived to share the spoils of war - i.e. territory. The zionist revisionists regulaly neglect to mention that. It doesn't fit with their myth of the Israelis valiantly making a heroic stand against of sea of Arabs full of seething hatred of jews (hating them of course for their jewishness, and not the fact that they were invading, conquering, killing etc ).
I've also seen it suggested several times that one of the reasons the Arabs fought was because they resented Jordon's expansionism, so they were fighting not just the Israelis but also the Jordanian army. However, I've yet to see much convincing evidence of that. If someone can point me to some (either for or against) I'd be interested in looking at it. |
So, if a majority of Christians thought it was in their best interest to establish a Jesus State in the Great Lakes, and people opposed this idea, they'd be anti-Christian. What if, all of the sudden, some Christians changed their mind and less than a majority supported Lake Michigan Jesus State? Would those who still opposed the state be anti-Christian as long as polls indicated support for LMJS was above 50%? Or 65%? A plurality or a majority?
Jews can support all the bad policy that they want, and for non-Jews to disagree with them is not the same (not nearly the same!) as putting them in camps and blowing them up in discotheques. |
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