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billybrobby

Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: The Immigration Debate |
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Do we have a big immigration debate thread yet? I'm talking mainly about the debate that's currently occurring in America, but it's a pretty universal thing. I guess I'll take the pro-immigration side.
I'm sympathetic to immigrants cause for the following reasons:
1. I'm of the opinion that being born in a country rightfully entitles a person to nothing. Americans invented the a-bomb, the airplane, and the artificial heart, but did I? No. So I can't claim any credit for those things. The only thing I can claim is my individual contributions, including my contributions to America, which frankly haven't been much, especially since I've spent my adult career here in Korea. If a Mexican spends 10 years working hard in America, he's got more a right to the privileges of America than I.
2. I think that laws have nothing to do with morality. I'll gladly break an unjust law without blinking an eye. So the whole argument that Mexicans should be punished for doing something illegal means nothing to me.
3. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/magazine/10global-t.html?ex=1339128000&en=12f0ac85519fb680&ei=5088
Above is a link to an interesting article in the New York Times Magazine. In it, an economist argues that labor should flow freely from country to country the way that goods do now. I agree with this. Ideally, in the future, the borders between countries should be no harder to cross than the borders between states. Of course, this will have to be implemented slowly, but it should happen one day. |
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cbclark4

Joined: 20 Aug 2006 Location: Masan
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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No one was complaining when all those native Americans moved south. |
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Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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They need to fund Immigration and the Embassies better to handle the backlog. People who legitimately try to go through the process face A LONG and COSTLY wait to get anything done. The system is in shambles.
But then again, I'm just bitter because my boyfriend couldn't come visit me in Korea because the embassy take too damn long to get their work done.  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: |
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I think this is a good and worthy topic for discussion.
I'll go along with the previous posters' opinion. I'm for immigration. I'd like to see immigration eased up, somewhat. While there are always some bigots in the barrel, I think most people get along reasonably well with people from other cultures. There seems to be a pretty big 'business' in intermarriage, if the posters on this board are any indication. That's all to the good. Walls come down eventually.
I do think it's reasonable to regulate immigration to balance the number of new jobs created, although this is partly taken care of naturally. You don't see all that many people breaking down the doors to get INTO Haiti. I'm not for entirely unregulated immigration for the simple reason that desperately poor people are in no position to bargain for a better wage.
It might be a misperception on my part, but it seems to me that countries that have accepted immigrants are more culturally vibrant. I don't know if creativity, ambition and risk-taking are genetic, but it seems like people with those characteristics packed up and left home, leaving the boring sorts back home and now the original home countries are showing a lack of those characteristics. |
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Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Location: Above it all
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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A mixture of peoples and cultures makes a country robust and vigorous and full of creativity and ideas. It`s been good for america. But even though Im a die hard liberal, I have to say that at this current time I`m anti muslim immigration to the west. Flame away ... |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Satori wrote: |
A mixture of peoples and cultures makes a country robust and vigorous and full of creativity and ideas. It`s been good for America. But even though I'm a die hard liberal, I have to say that at this current time I`m anti Muslim immigration to the west. Flame away ... |
Your opinion on anti immigration to the West probably finds its roots in the believe that the Muslim religion does not allow flexibility in interpretation, nor does it allow for adapting to the evolving world.
To that extend i can agree, but i have met sufficient amounts of Muslims to know that that is somewhat of a misperception. It is more a specific branch within the Muslim religion that does not allow them to open up and change, and they are poor and mentally blind.
It is not an easy discussion and generalizations will certainly not help.
That said, i believe there should be freedom of choice in the country you wish to live, and then to abide to its rule. |
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Tony_Balony

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Everyone single one of your points is bad.
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Do we have a big immigration debate thread yet? |
Yes there have been several here. All over on currents events.
The debates on this issue here on ESL cafe are bad. This is a Liberal pro immigration site, all post opposing immigration get deleted or get warnings. |
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Tiger Beer

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I'm VERY PRO-IMMIGRATION.
But the Mexican immigration is WAY TOO MUCH. It needs to be BALANCED with MANY other countries to make it truly multicultural.
There are 100 million Mexicans in Mexico.
There are 23 million Mexicans LEGALLY who emigrated to the U.S. and make it home forever more. But there are about 30 million ILLEGAL Mexicans in the U.S. who want to be legalized right now, and who knows how many more on the way if that were to happen.
What if 55 million Americans tried to move to ONE other country and currently living there now. Would anyone else in the world accept that kind of number from one other country and one other country alone?
On the other hand, those killer burritos, tacos, enchiladas and tequila with the worm are pretty tasty..  |
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Tony_Balony

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
1. I'm of the opinion that being born in a country rightfully entitles a person to nothing. Americans invented the a-bomb, the airplane, and the artificial heart, but did I? No. So I can't claim any credit for those things. The only thing I can claim is my individual contributions, including my contributions to America, which frankly haven't been much, especially since I've spent my adult career here in Korea. If a Mexican spends 10 years working hard in America, he's got more a right to the privileges of America than I. |
Americans almost didn't invent the A bomb, Eintstien a German Jew did. I'm not certain if he was a a US citizen at the time. Your individual contributions include not walking backwards, you could have done dumb things, you could have done bad things but you moved forward in your own way. Thats is your positive contribution. You were and are now a responsible citizen.
You serve a purpose by being here. Americans are often critisized for being insular. You are our argument against that. We need more ambassadors.
If a Mexican spends ten years... being exploited by a racist employer who now gets away from obeying labor laws, tax laws, doesn't have to hire Negros anymore... the Mexican has no option. He's got no where to go and when he has time on his hands he's racist enough to only help other Mexicans with things like defrauding various governments and producing phony ID's. Outside of this debate, the work ethic of Mexicans is unremakable. There is nothing special about the Mexican work ethic.
We need an industrious innovative competitive work ethic. More (successfull) Dr. Kwans, less Pedro-at-Burger King. The Mexicans do nothign special except steal. |
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Tony_Balony

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
2. I think that laws have nothing to do with morality. I'll gladly break an unjust law without blinking an eye. So the whole argument that Mexicans should be punished for doing something illegal means nothing to me. |
Real real bad idea. Extra bad. You don't want to end where this leads. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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all post opposing immigration get deleted or get warnings. |
Maybe it isn't the topic or your position, but your choice of words and presentation. Just a thought. I've found that with a modicum of tact, I can talk about the most sensitive subjects with anyone. I've also found that people who want to be a s***head can screw up the most innocuous topics. Not pointing fingers since I haven't read any of your posts before. Just saying. |
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Tony_Balony

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Above is a link to an interesting article in the New York Times Magazine. In it, an economist argues that labor should flow freely from country to country the way that goods do now. I agree with this. Ideally, in the future, the borders between countries should be no harder to cross than the borders between states. Of course, this will have to be implemented slowly, but it should happen one day. |
The New York Times hasn't been a newspaper for over a decade. Its just a newsletter for Liberal causes.
Some counties and its people work hard, others collect blings blings, get drunk, shoot guns, demonstrate that their sperm is manly and other caveman like things. The worker bees have to fend the parasites or there is no reason for getting out of bed. Everyhting you own will be stolen by common thugs or thugs from the government.
I have many criticism for people, many. Far fewer compliments but thats how it should be. you can't stroke too much. Winners never stop, thats the motto.
In this thread I've read that a dynamic society happens because it draws people from any places.
Liberals will eventaully kill me via heart attack. None of this stuff they put forward is reproducable. None. If immigration is beneficial, we could "cure" Africa and Brazil simply by shifting people every 2 years or so and simply though the "dynamics" improve everything. Won't happen,
If you want to show that multiculturalism really works, start from ground zero. Go somewhere, kill all the natives and steal their land and start from scratch. What really happens is that places like London, already very well established, simply throw out a mess of welfare checks and then call that multiculturalism.
I have more points but I'm worn so only one more. Those advocating a multicultural America have no credibility in the area since our immigration policy is highly racist in that in favors Latins and then Mexicans particular. You advocate multi but I've checked the accounts and they don't add up, not by a long way. |
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Tony_Balony

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it isn't the topic or your position, but your choice of words and presentation. Just a thought. I've found that with a modicum of tact, I can talk about the most sensitive subjects with anyone. I've also found that people who want to be a s***head can screw up the most innocuous topics. Not pointing fingers since I haven't read any of your posts before. Just saying. |
Wrong dead wrong,in many ways. Trust me. You are only allowed to make certain statements here. This precludes Daves ESL Cafe as a good discussion site. It just can't happen here. |
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twg

Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Location: Getting some fresh air...
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Tony_Balony wrote: |
This is a Liberal pro immigration site, all post opposing immigration get deleted or get warnings. |
BWA! HA! HA!
The reason posts on the topic get deleted and users warned is because some anti-immigration supporters start frothing at the mouth like Leni Riefenstahl has a camera pointed at them. |
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Tony_Balony

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: |
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The reason posts on the topic get deleted and users warned is because some anti-immigration supporters start frothing at the mouth like Leni Riefenstahl has a camera pointed at them. |
The opponents are entitled to frothing at the mouth because we get ripped off so much. Comes with the territory. Whats going on now is very historical. Its important to me certainly, I don't see a future for me in the US. Thats plenty big. I will become a refugee. God help me. |
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