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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: An inability to tolerate Islam contradicts western values |
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Here is a rather interesting article by Karen Armstrong who wrote The Battle For God - A History of Fundamentalism. I can't paste the whole article (I believe it contravenes the forum rules), and have therefore chosen several snippets, but I think it's worth a read. Some of the comments made by readers are also of interest.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2131471,00.html
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An inability to tolerate Islam contradicts western values
Free speech is now the rallying cry of escalating tensions, but we can also use it to expose double standards on both sides.
In the 17th century, when some Iranian mullahs were trying to limit freedom of expression, Mulla Sadra, the great mystical philosopher of Isfahan, insisted that all Muslims were perfectly capable of thinking for themselves and that any religiosity based on intellectual repression and inquisitorial coercion was "polluted". Mulla Sadra exerted a profound influence on generations of Iranians, but it is ironic that his most famous disciple was probably Ayatollah Khomeini, author of the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.
This type of contradiction is becoming increasingly frequent in our polarised world, as I discovered last month, when I arrived in Kuala Lumpur to find that the Malaysian government had banned three of my books as "incompatible with peace and social harmony". This was surprising because the government had invited me to Malaysia, and sponsored two of my public lectures. Their position was absurd, because it is impossible to exert this type of censorship in the electronic age. In fact, my books seemed so popular in Malaysia that I found myself wondering if the veto was part of a Machiavellian plot to entice the public to read them.
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| It would, however, be a mistake to imagine that Muslims are irretrievably opposed to free speech. Gallup conducted a poll in 10 Muslim countries (including Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) and found that the vast majority of respondents admired western "liberty and freedom and being open-minded with each other". They were particularly enthusiastic about our unrestricted press, liberty of worship and freedom of assembly. The only western achievement that they respected more than our political liberty was our modern technology. |
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On both sides, however, there are double standards and the kind of contradiction evident in Khomeini's violation of the essential principles of his mentor, Mulla Sadra. For Muslims to protest against the Danish cartoonists' depiction of the prophet as a terrorist, while carrying placards that threatened another 7/7 atrocity on London, represented a nihilistic failure of integrity.
But equally the cartoonists and their publishers, who seemed impervious to Muslim sensibilities, failed to live up to their own liberal values, since the principle of free speech implies respect for the opinions of others. Islamophobia should be as unacceptable as any other form of prejudice. When 255,000 members of the so-called "Christian community" signed a petition to prevent the building of a large mosque in Abbey Mills, east London, they sent a grim message to the Muslim world: western freedom of worship did not, apparently, apply to Islam. There were similar protests by some in the Jewish community, who, as Seth Freedman pointed out in his Commentisfree piece, should be the first to protest against discrimination.
Gallup found there was as yet no blind hatred of the west in Muslim countries; only 8% of respondents condoned the 9/11 atrocities. But this could change if the extremists persuade the young that the west is bent on the destruction of their religion. When Gallup asked what the west could do to improve relations, most Muslims replied unhesitatingly that western countries must show greater respect for Islam, placing this ahead of economic aid and non-interference in their domestic affairs. Our inability to tolerate Islam not only contradicts our western values; it could also become a major security risk. |
Edit: My apologies - I forgot to provided the link so you could read the whole article.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:05 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Gallup found there was as yet no blind hatred of the west in Muslim countries; only 8% of respondents condoned the 9/11 atrocities. But this could change if the extremists persuade the young that the west is bent on the destruction of their religion. When Gallup asked what the west could do to improve relations, most Muslims replied unhesitatingly that western countries must show greater respect for Islam, placing this ahead of economic aid and non-interference in their domestic affairs. Our inability to tolerate Islam not only contradicts our western values; it could also become a major security risk |
and what was the percentage of Muslims who believe that the 9/11 attacks were not carried out by Muslims???
also the flying nun should look up the difference between tolerating and ridiculing. There's mosques going up all over the states and Europe (not so much in the Muslim world) and they have a right to that. What they don't have a right to is to be free from being offended. |
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Tony_Balony
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| since the principle of free speech implies respect for the opinions of others. |
This is very recently manufactored principle. It has no precedence. I'm not certain what respect is. Of couse its implied because it certainly isn't elucidated or written anywhere. Free speech is limited by threats or by yelling "fire" in crowded theater when there isn't a fire. You are free to libel and slander people if you wish but you'll end up in civil court. This interpretation is recent invention of the Moderne Left. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, and I also like the thinly veiled threat:
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| Our inability to tolerate Islam not only contradicts our western values; it could also become a major security risk. |
Inability, huh? Let's be very clear on this: It's an unwillingness to tolerate Islam. Which is a natural, healthy reaction to a value system that threatens our very existence. And I don't give a fvck if it "contradicts" our Western values. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: |
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OP states the problem the-other-way-around.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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It's a shocking coincidence that pretty much every group that makes its way to the west is able to find at least some semblance (sp?) of acceptance there. Some more than others.
Islam is in dead last for being accepted by the west. Is this some sort of coincidence? I guess for some it's just easier to blame whites. That's what the rest of the world does. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to join the beatdown.
The smug self-promotion of Karen Armstrong's own book and its being banned in Malaysia turned me off immediately.
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| But equally the cartoonists and their publishers, who seemed impervious to Muslim sensibilities, failed to live up to their own liberal values, since the principle of free speech implies respect for the opinions of others. |
The 'offending' artists themselves made a huge distinction between Muslims in Denmark, who understood what they were trying to do, and the few Muslims who took the cartoons back and the many Muslims who became outraged by it.
I think, BB, you do a decent job presenting how mainstream and liberal many Muslims who live in Europe can be, but you neglect to understand the depth of the divide between Muslims in the ME and the West. The former are largely ignorant of the West and the meaning behind our values and expressions, and are dependent upon the same narrow window on the Western world as many Westerners are dependent upon the serial protestors and 'angry men' aka media whores of militant Islam.
The security risk has something to do with our foreign policy, a lot to do with Muslims failing to understand the West, and very little to do with what cartoons are published. Again, its the Arab street's narrow window that amplifies the innocuous and what should have been unknown satirical cartoons into a PR disaster. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| -As any arab christain knows, muslims like to kill us. That's why syria was 30% christian 100 years ago, and now its around 10%. The happiest muslim countries are the least serious muslim ones. Turks are muslims and they prance around in bikinis. Saudis are muslims and they blow up stuff. If you don't have women to fool around with, things get bad fast. The strict muslim world dishes out four women at a time to those who can afford it and the rest of the guys get stuck washing dishes, while single, in felafel stands in Paris. No suprise. Suicide bombers just want to get laid. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
OP states the problem the-other-way-around.
Let Islam take that ten-trillion-pound "poor me!" chip off its shoulder, let Islam stop dehumanizing and threatening those of us who do not share its worldview as "infidels," in a word, let it relax, and see where that leads its followers... |
Well, when we stop acting as if those idiots in your photo are representive of most muslims, we might be heading in a better direction. After all, good relations is a two way street.
Perhaps when we stop treating non-western muslims as 'regrettable collateral damage' they might be inclined to view us less unfavourably?  |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well, when we stop acting as if those idiots in your photo are representive of most muslims, we might be heading in a better direction. After all, good relations is a two way street.
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I wish some people would stop acting as if a few idiot racists or military blunders represent the actions of most westerners..... |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Why the reluctance towards Shariah law?
It promotes _harmony_. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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My point is that anyone who states this is stating the problem the-other-way-around.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Perhaps when we stop treating non-western muslims as 'regrettable collateral damage...' |
This is not about "non-Western Muslims." This is about "the idiots" in my photo and all those who they speak for in cities like London claiming that the West does not tolerate them.
My point is that anyone who states this is stating the problem the-other-way-around. |
Well, "the idiots" will likely have been very much affected by the collateral damage they've seen on the internet and TV (though no doubt, some of these guys don't need much reason to act like loons). That's been a wonderful rallying point for terrorist organisations - a super duper issue for helping them recruit, handed to them on a plate by our callous attitude to 'regretable collateral damage.'
And it's not just "the idiots" by the way. I've seen quite normal "moderate" muslims with no antagonism to the West previous to the wars in Iraq and Lebanon, slowly becoming a little angry about this. They wonder at our (tacit) support of it.
Anyway, the article is not just 'having a go' at the West on this:
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| On both sides, however, there are double standards and the kind of contradiction evident in Khomeini's violation of the essential principles of his mentor, Mulla Sadra. For Muslims to protest against the Danish cartoonists' depiction of the prophet as a terrorist, while carrying placards that threatened another 7/7 atrocity on London, represented a nihilistic failure of integrity. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Why must they be purely innocent victims while "the West" and especially America is the pure aggressor...?
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
I only wish you would not be so defensive about Muslims, idiots or not. You refuse and fail to acknowledge that at least some of them are part (and only part) of the problem -- initiators of the problem, just as some in "the West" and in Israel are part of the problem as well. And this does not derive merely from Muslims' witnessing "American foreign policy" or what-have-you (which they never do, incidentally. What they think they know comes to them through mediated sources, oftentimes sources hostile and antagonistic to "the West" and/or America. But that is another issue. See my two threads treating leftist and Hollwood involvement in stirring up antiAmericanism abroad, for example). This derives from their own shortcomings and inability and indeed unwillingness to tolerate Others and get along in the world.
Why can you not concede that? Why must they be purely innocent victims while "the West" and especially America is the pure aggressor...? |
Now, why do you assume I think that way? That all muslims are poor little lambs with pure hearts and innocent thoughts? Haha. I know from personal experience that this is not so. In fact some of my most difficult moments with strangers have been with (non-Western) muslim men. Of course we are not all bad and they all good. That's so obvious a fact that I wouldn't have thought I'd have to state it here. 
But in every relationship, I find you have to also examine your own faults/misdeeds. So you may be annoyed with your lover, for example, and you're annoyed that they do this, don't do that etc. But they are responsible for what they do, and you are only responsible for what you do, and so you can only change your own behaviour. By doing this wisely, you can often influence their behaviour, and so improve the relationship. But if you just keep carping and nagging at them all the time, but don't bother to work on yourself, your relationship is only going to go to the dogs.
There's a lot that happens in the muslim world that I don't like. All the silly nonsense over the Danish cartoons for example (people died for that) and terrorist organisations (I'm not talking about resistance groups here - they are a grey area for me) like various Al Quaeda outfits. However, to be always pointing the finger at the muslim world and not taking a good look at ourselves strikes me to be as ludicrous as a man whinging to his mates about how his wife nags him sometimes, shouts and swears at him and once kicked him in the shins, when he regularly beats hell out of her, giving her black eyes and occasionally the odd fractured bone.
We have been responsible (through our own actions, or through the support of one of our allies) for tens of thousands of deaths in the Middle East (and that is just a VERY conservative estimate). Muslims have still only managed to kill a few thousand of us. And those deaths have been caused by a few sick rebels, acting on their own. Our contributions have been by democratically elected governments with electoral approval (tacit or overwise). Yet we somehow hold ourselves to be morally superior to them.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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