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| I'm a woman and I'm a feminist. |
| I'm a woman and I have reservations about the word with regard to myself. |
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17% |
[ 4 ] |
| I'm a man and I'm a feminist. |
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34% |
[ 8 ] |
| I'm a man and I'd never use that word about myself. |
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47% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
| I have had conversations with people who have expressed amazement that modern feminists have not put up too much of a stink with Islam[ic] extremists because of the way most women are treated. I don't know too much about the topic, so I don't feel right to comment. But, it's something to think about. |
Through Foucault and Said, and especially as articulated by feminist theorists like Joan Wallach Scott, feminism has allied itself with postcolonial and the rest of postmodernist theory.
In other words, beware of ever saying anything at all about any Third-World people or culture, past or present -- and especially any women. This includes Middle-Eastern men who beat and abuse women.
You will invoke their unmitigated wrath if you do so. They will attack you, relentlessly, as an imperialist and a racist, among other things. Or you might just provoke a cynical response, even if you articulate an interest in helping such women, as we all witnessed when Emily Rosenberg denounced the W. Bush Administration and CNN and other cablenews networks' attn to these women post-9/11.
Almost a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't problem.
But do feel free to crudely stereotype or generally and bitterly lambast any male in Western Civilization -- and especially in white America -- as you please. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting thread. Like many men, I am not exactly sure where to tread. Maybe that is part of the problem...
But if Feminism means men and women should be treated equally and that a Feminine point of view is a legitimate starting point for intellectual understanding, count me in.
How certain words become such hot potatoes is interesting. The fact that many people on Dave's see such negativity in such a word says a lot -- not sure what -- but a lot.
My mom used to say something like in all the cultures of the world you can find matrilineal systems but there never has been a true matriarchy. At best you see cultures that work toward power sharing and equality. It speaks volumes about men and women. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
Like many men, I am not exactly sure where to tread.
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Well, when my man is treading about in the kitchen, I like him to be a feminist. There's lots of pots to be washed, and surfaces to be wiped, etc.
But when he steps into the bedroom, he better leave his namby pamby 'feminist principles' behind.  |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Or you might just provoke a cynical response, even if you articulate an interest in helping such women, as we all witnessed when Emily Rosenberg denounced the W. Bush Administration and CNN and other cablenews networks' attn to these women post-9/11.
Almost a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't problem.
But do feel free to crudely stereotype or generally and bitterly lambast any male in Western Civilization -- and especially in white America -- as you please. |
It's not a completely untenable position, when you think of it. Cultural changes, such as gender roles and other forms of social justice and equality, have to be arrived at from within a particular culture - if imposed from outside, it really DOES look a lot like interference, at the least, and perhaps even as a tool of domination by more powerful nations. Even if it is actually neither of those things, it is likely to be perceived as arrogance and superiority. (When people ask for help, that's when you give it - otherwise, let them solve their problems on their own, and wait until asked.)
I think most Western feminists probably figure we still have quite a bit of work of work to do at home before critiqueing other countries and cultures - though some things, like public stonings and honor killings ought to be shouted about by everyone, everywhere, not on grounds of feminism necessarily, just on grounds of simple humanity. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Or you might just provoke a cynical response, even if you articulate an interest in helping such women, as we all witnessed when Emily Rosenberg denounced the W. Bush Administration and CNN and other cablenews networks' attn to these women post-9/11.
Almost a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't problem.
But do feel free to crudely stereotype or generally and bitterly lambast any male in Western Civilization -- and especially in white America -- as you please. |
It's not a completely untenable position, when you think of it. Cultural changes, such as gender roles and other forms of social justice and equality, have to be arrived at from within a particular culture - if imposed from outside, it really DOES look a lot like interference, at the least, and perhaps even as a tool of domination by more powerful nations. Even if it is actually neither of those things, it is likely to be perceived as arrogance and superiority. (When people ask for help, that's when you give it - otherwise, let them solve their problems on their own, and wait until asked.)
I think most Western feminists probably figure we still have quite a bit of work of work to do at home before critiqueing other countries and cultures - though some things, like public stonings and honor killings ought to be shouted about by everyone, everywhere, not on grounds of feminism necessarily, just on grounds of simple humanity. |
I was biting my tongue and trying to stay out of this one, cos I've had this discussion a few times before.
It's absolutely pointless me and other western women bouncing about the place condemning people in other countries for their foul practices. Better to quietly give donations to those working within those societies if you really want to help. If feminism becomes too synonymous with 'those bloody foreigners telling us how to do things' it will actually put back the progress being made.
I remember how angry my Korean students were at foreigners and that nasty French woman (Bardot) saying Koreans were savages for eating dog. Several of my students admitted that previous to the uproar, they'd had no interest in eating dog (and would probably have been sympathetic to seeing it stamped out) but that when it became an 'us against them' issue, they went out and ate dog on principal.
Scolding people in other countries about their behaviour will likely make them cling to it for longer - just to be perverse. That's how people are.
Making a big fuss about it is a waste of your time and energy and is likely to have the opposite effect of what you intend. Unless of course, one just enjoys revelling in one's own moral superiority and whatnot.  |
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unknown9398
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Location: Yeongcheon, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Note: The following post is peppered with my personal opinions. I say this up front so that I don't have to repeat it over and over. Also, I make quite a few generalizations, which are impossible to avoid unless discussing individuals.
Feminism has been both a blessing and a curse. On the positive side, it has helped women achieve something close to gender equality in the workplace. On the negative side, gender equality in the workplace has caused a breakdown of the family unit. Feminism is at the core of the now breathtakingly high divorce rate in America (my home) of roughly 55% of first marriages. Why? Feminism encourages women to be a little too "strong" within the family. Men don't want to deal with wives who compete with them to "wear the pants" in the family, and women now believe that they are entitled to do so. The result is divorce.
Prior to marriage, many women continue to seek the idealized "knight in shining armor" of their childhood fantasies. However, many men find that being married to a feminist is difficult because we're expected to be men while being slowly stripped of the responsibilities and characteristics that made us men to begin with.
For modern women, the power shift within marriage is viewed positively because women have gained power. They view themselves as on more equal footing with their husbands, and I can't fault women for wanting equality. But there is a high cost that feminists either don't recognize or won't acknowledge, and for which they certainly don't assume responsibility.
I know some of you will be offended, but try not to get too personal when you flame me. |
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normalcyispasse
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Location: Yeosu until the end of February WOOOOOOOO
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I am a feminist only inasmuch as feminism is a part of humanism. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Bobster, you've f***ed up your poll. |
Guilty. Somehow whenever I try to do this, whatever i choose as the first option turns out to be a header. Dunno why. Well, the point is to talk about it, not so much about voting. |
Poor diddums, you just need a good woman to look after you.
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| If it means that I eat poor little men for tea and am a real ball-breaker, then I can be one too. HAHA |
Just to be provocative, why is it okay for a woman to express this kind of hostility toward the other gender, but if a man does so, well, he's some kind of monster? (Which would be MY gut feeling at reading such a thing written by a man.) |
Well, perhaps the fact that it is still kind of permissable to do so, suggests that there is still a fair way to go before we've reached true equality?
Anyway, I might turn it around and say why is it cute when men make cheeky little remarks (which one assumes they don't really mean) to goad the 'feminazis' and it's not cute for 'a bird' to have a bit of a laff too?  The fact is Bobster, if I had ended up with a different set of chromosones, making me instead 'Big_Brother_Bird' I would by now, due to my sick and twisted nature, have been unable to refrain from making some cheeky sexist retort to see if I could get a few prissy snotty 'feminazis' here frothing at the mouth.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| unknown9398 wrote: |
Note: The following post is peppered with my personal opinions. I say this up front so that I don't have to repeat it over and over. Also, I make quite a few generalizations, which are impossible to avoid unless discussing individuals.
Feminism has been both a blessing and a curse. On the positive side, it has helped women achieve something close to gender equality in the workplace. On the negative side, gender equality in the workplace has caused a breakdown of the family unit. Feminism is at the core of the now breathtakingly high divorce rate in America (my home) of roughly 55% of first marriages. Why? Feminism encourages women to be a little too "strong" within the family. Men don't want to deal with wives who compete with them to "wear the pants" in the family, and women now believe that they are entitled to do so. The result is divorce.
Prior to marriage, many women continue to seek the idealized "knight in shining armor" of their childhood fantasies. However, many men find that being married to a feminist is difficult because we're expected to be men while being slowly stripped of the responsibilities and characteristics that made us men to begin with.
For modern women, the power shift within marriage is viewed positively because women have gained power. They view themselves as on more equal footing with their husbands, and I can't fault women for wanting equality. But there is a high cost that feminists either don't recognize or won't acknowledge, and for which they certainly don't assume responsibility.
I know some of you will be offended, but try not to get too personal when you flame me. |
It could be that those marriages wouldn't have worked out anyway, but the couples would have stayed together because divorce was socially unacceptable. Now people (both men and women) have more freedom to leave a bad situation.
At least that seems like the most logical explanation for the increase in divorces ... can you prove otherwise? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| unknown9398 wrote: |
However, many men find that being married to a feminist is difficult because we're expected to be men while being slowly stripped of the responsibilities and characteristics that made us men to begin with.
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Curious as to what those characteristics might be...?
Laziness?
Bossiness?
Smack-her-about-a-bitiness?
Leave-her-to-do-all-the-housechores-herselfiness? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| It's not a completely untenable position... |
The position has no credibility with me, Bobster. Hypocrisy and double-standards abound.
We were told when the so-called Bell-Curve Theory came out in the 1990s, that one cannot accurately measure "intelligence" in the first place. Not to mention opponents' shrill denunciations that its propoents were -- surprise! -- racists. Gould's book on this is excellent, by the way.
Comes now Michael Moore who asserts "Americans are the dumbest people on Earth." That is, that out of six billion, we three-hundred million come in dead last in "intelligence." And a whole bunch of people -- people who coincidentally champion postcolonialism, antiracism, et cetera, nod their heads "yes! tell us more!" all too enthusiastically.
At the end of the day, feminists and the other so-called human-rights advocates either stand for what they say they stand for or they do not. One cannot pick-and-choose with morals and morality -- especially all these purists who love to preach and denounce, no?
But at the end of the day, Bobster, it is the worst crime of the history of the universe that men objectify women! (Disclaimer: except in the Middle East where one would be a racist to think so.) ROFL. |
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ella
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Webster says: "feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes," so of course I'm a feminist. Why was a simple "Yes" not an option in your poll? |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe men and women should have the same opportunities. I believe there should be equal pay for equal work. If that makes me a feminist, then I guess I am. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ella wrote: |
| Webster says: "feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes," so of course I'm a feminist. |
Yes. And going by that definition, only the most insipid and insensate tart could claim not to be a feminist.
There are some female humans here who may have some interesting explanations for why they do not call themselves feminists - and I'm quite open and interested to hear them. But if it is merely because they are too gutless and frightened of others' opinions of them, then they deserve to be condemned to a life mated to a drunken wife-beating lout. After all, they've got no appreciation of those brave feminists like Emily Pankhurst who went out on a limb so that we can enjoy the freedom we have today.
An example of some of the sickening conversations I've had with such snivelling creatures:
Snivelling non-feminist says: Please don't think I'm a feminist or anything like that, but I think it's most unfair that woman don't have the same pay as men for the same work.
Big_Bird trying not to puke: Yeah, whatever.
Snivelling non-feminist thinks: Please don't think I'm a feminist because I'm so scared of being uncool and socially unacceptable because I am a pathetic wimp. I wouldn't want you to think I was one of those horrible nasty socially unacceptable women who fought hard so that I could have the education and oppurtunities I enjoy in my lifetime.
| Quote: |
| Why was a simple "Yes" not an option in your poll? |
Because if you want something done properly, get a woman to do it. Right Bobster? |
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unknown9398
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Location: Yeongcheon, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
It could be that those marriages wouldn't have worked out anyway, but the couples would have stayed together because divorce was socially unacceptable. Now people (both men and women) have more freedom to leave a bad situation.
At least that seems like the most logical explanation for the increase in divorces ... can you prove otherwise? |
Nope. |
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