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An inability to tolerate Islam contradicts western values
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postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:33 am Post subject:

Quote:

believe that all the Palestinians have to do is play nice, and all this pain will be over.

If only those silly Palestinians would renounce violence, they say, there would be peace!

They don't realise that the Palestinians have tried renouncing violence, and that it really got them nowhere.

Funny I feel that you are saying the same thing about Israel...If only that big nasty Israeli government would be nice and get rid of all those pain in the ass check points which exist for no reason whatsoever..then all would be fine...oh if they'd only abandon the settlements then things would be rosy....oh yeah look at Gaza...what a palestinian picnic now that the jews are gone...

Actually if they'd just acknowledge that Israel has the right to exist then maybe that would be a start....but the people they elected on not too keen on that are they??

Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:49 am Post subject:

Quote:

I cannot accept the argument that people have nothing better to do than protest ignorant statements by Imams with whom they would not normally even associate.

You're making me repeat myself. Im not talking about protesting silly fatars, Im talking about protesting things like stoning a woman to death. And yet they CAN get organised en mass to protest about cartoons.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:07 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Islam is very likely problematic, but I do not think Islam alone is the problem. If it were, Indonesia would be a backwater. I've pointed out before that the problem is the Middle East itself.

Indeed. It was a pleasant surprise in my travels in Bangladesh that no one had an interest in discussing religion with me there, and not once did someone bring up the Palestine-Israel issue. The # of people who vented about America was less than 5.

And speaking of Southeast Asia, most "experts" feel that the region has done an admirable job fighting terrorism since the Bali bombings (with southern Thailand being one exception).

Quote:

Im talking about protesting things like stoning a woman to death. And yet they CAN get organised en mass to protest about cartoons.

Stoning a woman to death takes place in select countries in the world. Beyond saudi and iran, I don't know of any other countries where this occurs. In the case of saudi, it is a repressive gov't where no one can protest w/out getting in trouble. People in neighboring countries dont say much because the Saudis employ lots of other arabs and the country has a lot of sway in the region. Iran, well, those are those infidel shi'ites so who cares about them anyway?

If you refer to honor killings, just read an english language newspaper from a country where they take place, and I guarantee you that any article covering an incident will have a tone of disgust, and there will be letters expressing horror with the crime as well.

As kuros says, its a stretch to expect your average mohammed abdullah to go protest something that doesn't happen in his country and is only (very) loosely connected to his culture.

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:19 am Post subject:

Quote:

its a stretch to expect your average mohammed abdullah to go protest something that doesn't happen in his country and is only (very) loosely connected to his culture.

Unless of course it involves a novel or cartoons 'ridiculing' the 'prophet'. Protests against people committing mass murder in the name of Islam, forget about it.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:42 am Post subject:

Quote:

Unless of course it involves a novel or cartoons 'ridiculing' the 'prophet'. Protests against people committing mass murder in the name of Islam, forget about it.

Your point might be a bit more valid if huge numbers of Muslims were out protesting the Danish cartoons, while refusing to protest Muslim violence. But I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of Muslims don't get involved in protesting either.

Bucheon Bum wrote:

Quote:

As kuros says, its a stretch to expect your average mohammed abdullah to go protest something that doesn't happen in his country and is only (very) loosely connected to his culture.

Yep. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese in Boston just settled a mutli-million dollar lawsuit for abetting sexual abuse. And similar lawsuits have been filed in Boston, Canada, and elsewhere. Now, I'd say that the rape of young boys, which seems to have bordered on the systemic in some of these places, is a pretty freaking serious crime. Maybe not exactly on par with bombing a nightclub in Bali, but closer to homicide than to jaywalking, in any event.

Now, when these abuse stories first came to light in the mid-80s, did you see Catholics around the world marching en masse to demand that the North American church shoulder its share of blame for what took place? Not that I recall. And yet there probably were a lot of Catholics in the same era marching against abortion, homosexuality, pornography, etc.

Leavingkorea

Joined: 27 Apr 2007

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:45 am Post subject:

Quote:

Gallup found there was as yet no blind hatred of the west in Muslim countries; only 8% of respondents condoned the 9/11 atrocities.

So only 80,000,000 nuts to worry about. That's good I thought this was a real problem for a while.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:24 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Unless of course it involves a novel or cartoons 'ridiculing' the 'prophet'. Protests against people committing mass murder in the name of Islam, forget about it.

1. That isn't loosely tied to their culture. The prophet mohammed is at the center of their culture, especially in the case of the Arab world.

2. There are protests against those people. It happened in Amman following the hotel bombings, and in Egypt following some of the Sinai bombings. Those are just two examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:45 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

...but I do not think Islam alone is the problem...the problem is the Middle East itself.

I hope my language has not suggested I believe otherwise.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:57 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

...I'd say that the rape of young boys, which seems to have bordered on the systemic in some of these places, is a pretty freaking serious crime. Maybe not exactly on par with bombing a nightclub in Bali, but closer to homicide than to jaywalking, in any event...

You understate it. Western Civ has been criticizing the Church for systemic malfuctions since Luther.

Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

crusher_of_heads

Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

its a stretch to expect your average mohammed abdullah to go protest something that doesn't happen in his country and is only (very) loosely connected to his culture.

Unless of course it involves a novel or cartoons 'ridiculing' the 'prophet'. Protests against people committing mass murder in the name of Islam, forget about it.

Anwar Sadat became a moderate and spoke in the Knesset-look how things worked out for him.

postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject:

Quote:

kurdistan and Nigeria have had recent cases....I imagine it could also happen in other African countries "blessed" with the sharia law they so happily accepted many years ago

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:

postfundie wrote:

Quote:

kurdistan and Nigeria have had recent cases....I imagine it could also happen in other African countries "blessed" with the sharia law they so happily accepted many years ago

kurdistan is a country? wasn't aware of that.

And yes, there was a couple cases in Nigeria, but no one has been stoned.

BBC story from 2002

CNN in 2003

And it looks like she was in fact spared:

Guardian article

Quote:

Ms Lawal, 32, was sentenced to be stoned to death under Sharia law in March 2002 after she gave birth to a child outside marriage. Twelve mainly Islamic states in northern Nigeria have adopted Sharia, though the Nigerian government had argued for Ms Lawal's release.In an hour-long ruling, the judges in black robes and white turbans said Ms Lawal was not caught in the act, and was not given enough time to understand the charges against her. They also complained that only one judge was present at her initial conviction, instead of the three required under Islamic law.

contrarian

Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject:

Can anyone give me a good reason why we should tolerate the xcesses that ssem so common in Islam? Why should we tolerate suicde bombings? Female circumcision the absolutely bloated rhetoric, which they begin to believe and act on ("drive the Jews into the sea"). The perpetual claiming that all lands once occupied are Ummah and thi\us claimable by them) Just to name a few.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

BJWD wrote:

Religion does not deserve respect

You need to learn something about religion. I'm absolutely certain you've never read the Bible well.

Yeah? What should I learn? That a bunch of adults worship an imaginary friend? Respect that? *beep* that. It is childish. ALL of it.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject:

postfundie wrote:

Quote:

Well, it's a bit more complicated than just being nice. But if Israel would say "Bye Bye" to the lovely green fertile hilltops of the West Bank, and retreat to pre-1967 borders, much of their problems with occupied Palestinians would be over yes. They'd have a pretty unstable state next to them, to begin with. But that could resolve itself with a bit of help from the international community. The Palestinians would no longer be fighting an occupation, would they. Remember in the early days of the occupation, the Palestinians were largely very passive, and it was easy for the IDF to assert control of them. These suicide bombers happened much later. And not because they thought it would be cool and fun.

But it's not going to happen. Israel wants that land.

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