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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Of the various douchbaggy habits you have, the habit of writing "sigh" is likely the most obnoxious. If you are unable to express emotions with words without actually having to directly indicate which emotion you want expressed you might want to reconsider your "career" as a baby-dumping esl cowgirl.
By the way, your and dd's immediate assumption that all 250 (and ALL of their peers) are fully completely innocent of all crimes speaks to the magnitude of your naivet� towards this situation.
What you really, seriously need to understand is that you are nothing more than the pali ying to the Zionist yang. That is, you are just a weak-kneed hack. |
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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| I'd like to see the opinions of some Israel supporters here re: more popular terrorist groups, such as the IRA or ANC. |
these and other similar " terrorist" organisations served a purpose. they maintained an armed struggle until diplomatic solution could be agreed or circumstances changed that made violence counter productive. these organisations matured and sought political solutions. eg as sinn fein made political progress the ira operations were no longer beneficial or desirable. nelson mandela and other anc leaders also moved away from violence when political solutions were achievable.
your turn, what do you think of groups like the irgun that used terrorism against the british during their occupation of israel prior to 1948? and the execution of jewish terrorists by the british? |
Well, it seemed to me, and even some Israeli commentators, that Hamas was in the process of 'maturing and seeking political solutions' and were eschewing violence and instead participating in democracy and turning to diplomacy. However, unlike Sein Finn, they were not allowed to evolve and mature and become part of the political solution.
Frankly, a moderate and tamed Hamas is an inconvenience. Israeli leaders have privately acknowleged that if Palestinians abandoned terrorism, it would be something of a nuisance as one of their main pretexts for their 'security measures' (a euphemism for their slow and sure tightening grip on coveted parts of the West Bank) would no longer exist. Frankly, if Hamas did not exist, Israel would have to invent Hamas.
If Israel were serious about peace, they would have taken that opportunity to engage with Hamas. They need Hamas on board if they want peaceful political solution.
Israel does want peace, but not at the cost of giving up dreams of Israel Eratz. |
its eretz-israel.
why should they? un resolution 181 (part 2 b) establishes eretz israel as a state along with a arab state.
or are you confusing it with this:
| Quote: |
| During the British Mandate of Palestine, the name Eretz Yisrael (abbreviated א״י Aleph-Yod), was part of the official name of the territory, when written in Hebrew. That name was (פלשתינה (א״י. The government of the British Mandate of Palestine wanted the name to be פלשתינה (Palestina) while the Yishuv wanted ארץ ישראל (Eretz Yisrael). The compromise eventually achieved was that the initials א"י would be written in brackets whenever פלשתינה is written. Consequently, in 20th century political usage, the term "Land of Israel" usually denotes only those parts of the land which came under the British mandate, i.e. the land currently controlled by the State of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, and sometimes also Transjordan (now the Kingdom of Jordan). |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel
you still haven't commented on the execution of jewish terrorists such as that of yehiel dresner:
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On February 10, 1947, 43 days after their capture and arrest, their trial opened at a military court in Jerusalem. The defendants did not take part in the proceedings, refused to answer questions and did not cross-examine prosecution witnesses. When the testimony was completed, Dresner and Golovsky rose to their feet and declared that they did not recognize the authority of the court; they considered themselves to be prisoners of war and hence the authorities were empowered to detain them, but not to try them.
Yehiel Dresner, the first to speak, said:
We set out to prove to you that a new Hebrew generation has arisen in this country, which will not tolerate humiliation, will not accept slavery and will fight for its honor at all costs. We will break your whip...
No longer will you whip the citizens of this country, whether Jews or Arabs, for we, the soldiers of Israel, have rebelled against your rule and its despicable methods. |
http://www.etzel.org.il/english/index2.html |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
[
Well, it seemed to me, and even some Israeli commentators, that Hamas was in the process of 'maturing and seeking political solutions' and were eschewing violence and instead participating in democracy and turning to diplomacy. However, unlike Sein Finn, they were not allowed to evolve and mature and become part of the political solution.
Frankly, a moderate and tamed Hamas is an inconvenience. Israeli leaders have privately acknowleged that if Palestinians abandoned terrorism, it would be something of a nuisance as one of their main pretexts for their 'security measures' (a euphemism for their slow and sure tightening grip on coveted parts of the West Bank) would no longer exist. Frankly, if Hamas did not exist, Israel would have to invent Hamas.
If Israel were serious about peace, they would have taken that opportunity to engage with Hamas. They need Hamas on board if they want peaceful political solution.
Israel does want peace, but not at the cost of giving up dreams of Israel Eratz. |
Utter tripe. Hamas could get recognized and supported (and not just by Israel, but Canada, the U.S and other Western nations) if it renounced its stated aims of destroying Israel. It was offered that in return for modifiying its charter and refused. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| This Charming Man wrote: |
Of the various douchbaggy habits you have, the habit of writing "sigh" is likely the most obnoxious. If you are unable to express emotions with words without actually having to directly indicate which emotion you want expressed you might want to reconsider your "career" as a baby-dumping esl cowgirl.
By the way, your and dd's immediate assumption that all 250 (and ALL of their peers) are fully completely innocent of all crimes speaks to the magnitude of your naivet� towards this situation.
What you really, seriously need to understand is that you are nothing more than the pali ying to the Zionist yang. That is, you are just a weak-kneed hack. |
Sigh. Go back and read my comments, you hot headed and silly little boy. Where did I say that the 250+ prisoners are completely innocent? I never even commented on their innocence one way or another. BTW, they were FATAH. Not the children etc that we were discussing. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| I'd like to see the opinions of some Israel supporters here re: more popular terrorist groups, such as the IRA or ANC. |
these and other similar " terrorist" organisations served a purpose. they maintained an armed struggle until diplomatic solution could be agreed or circumstances changed that made violence counter productive. these organisations matured and sought political solutions. eg as sinn fein made political progress the ira operations were no longer beneficial or desirable. nelson mandela and other anc leaders also moved away from violence when political solutions were achievable.
your turn, what do you think of groups like the irgun that used terrorism against the british during their occupation of israel prior to 1948? and the execution of jewish terrorists by the british? |
Well, it seemed to me, and even some Israeli commentators, that Hamas was in the process of 'maturing and seeking political solutions' and were eschewing violence and instead participating in democracy and turning to diplomacy. However, unlike Sein Finn, they were not allowed to evolve and mature and become part of the political solution.
Frankly, a moderate and tamed Hamas is an inconvenience. Israeli leaders have privately acknowleged that if Palestinians abandoned terrorism, it would be something of a nuisance as one of their main pretexts for their 'security measures' (a euphemism for their slow and sure tightening grip on coveted parts of the West Bank) would no longer exist. Frankly, if Hamas did not exist, Israel would have to invent Hamas.
If Israel were serious about peace, they would have taken that opportunity to engage with Hamas. They need Hamas on board if they want peaceful political solution.
Israel does want peace, but not at the cost of giving up dreams of Israel Eratz. |
its eretz-israel.
why should they? un resolution 181 (part 2 b) establishes eretz israel as a state along with a arab state.
or are you confusing it with this:
| Quote: |
| During the British Mandate of Palestine, the name Eretz Yisrael (abbreviated א״י Aleph-Yod), was part of the official name of the territory, when written in Hebrew. That name was (פלשתינה (א״י. The government of the British Mandate of Palestine wanted the name to be פלשתינה (Palestina) while the Yishuv wanted ארץ ישראל (Eretz Yisrael). The compromise eventually achieved was that the initials א"י would be written in brackets whenever פלשתינה is written. Consequently, in 20th century political usage, the term "Land of Israel" usually denotes only those parts of the land which came under the British mandate, i.e. the land currently controlled by the State of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, and sometimes also Transjordan (now the Kingdom of Jordan). |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel
you still haven't commented on the execution of jewish terrorists such as that of yehiel dresner:
| Quote: |
On February 10, 1947, 43 days after their capture and arrest, their trial opened at a military court in Jerusalem. The defendants did not take part in the proceedings, refused to answer questions and did not cross-examine prosecution witnesses. When the testimony was completed, Dresner and Golovsky rose to their feet and declared that they did not recognize the authority of the court; they considered themselves to be prisoners of war and hence the authorities were empowered to detain them, but not to try them.
Yehiel Dresner, the first to speak, said:
We set out to prove to you that a new Hebrew generation has arisen in this country, which will not tolerate humiliation, will not accept slavery and will fight for its honor at all costs. We will break your whip...
No longer will you whip the citizens of this country, whether Jews or Arabs, for we, the soldiers of Israel, have rebelled against your rule and its despicable methods. |
http://www.etzel.org.il/english/index2.html |
I was using the term Israel Eratz to mean 'Greater Israel' (which is how it's most commonly used, at least as far as I have seen) i.e. an Israel outside the 1967 territory. Actually, it is an ambiguous term as some take it to mean the territory once known as the British Mandate of Palestine, some go a bit futher and want some of Lebanon and Syria, and other nutty religious fundamentalists look at this passage in the bible:
| Quote: |
On that day, God made a covenant with Abraham, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Hittites, Perizzites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites." - Genesis 15:18-21
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and take it mean that the territory of Israel should include Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and much more etc.
Israel has never formally declared her borders. Another reason why, if I were an Arab, I might be a touch reluctant to acknowledge Israel as a state. What is Israel. How will Israel be reified...? How is Israel's territory defined? Where are her boundries? In the middle of Syria, Lebanon and Egypt? What will I be agreeing to...?
Yes, I'm aware that the Israelis started off as terrorists themselves. But doesn't that make them rather hypocritical when they say stuff like "We will not negotiate with terrorists.." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
[
Well, it seemed to me, and even some Israeli commentators, that Hamas was in the process of 'maturing and seeking political solutions' and were eschewing violence and instead participating in democracy and turning to diplomacy. However, unlike Sein Finn, they were not allowed to evolve and mature and become part of the political solution.
Frankly, a moderate and tamed Hamas is an inconvenience. Israeli leaders have privately acknowleged that if Palestinians abandoned terrorism, it would be something of a nuisance as one of their main pretexts for their 'security measures' (a euphemism for their slow and sure tightening grip on coveted parts of the West Bank) would no longer exist. Frankly, if Hamas did not exist, Israel would have to invent Hamas.
If Israel were serious about peace, they would have taken that opportunity to engage with Hamas. They need Hamas on board if they want peaceful political solution.
Israel does want peace, but not at the cost of giving up dreams of Israel Eratz. |
Utter tripe. Hamas could get recognized and supported (and not just by Israel, but Canada, the U.S and other Western nations) if it renounced its stated aims of destroying Israel. It was offered that in return for modifiying its charter and refused. |
Hamas have offered to compromise here. But even if they went the whole hog, I don't believe it would get them anywhere. It's just a convenient stalling device, and Hamas probably know it. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| This Charming Man wrote: |
Of the various douchbaggy habits you have, the habit of writing "sigh" is likely the most obnoxious. If you are unable to express emotions with words without actually having to directly indicate which emotion you want expressed you might want to reconsider your "career" as a baby-dumping esl cowgirl.
By the way, your and dd's immediate assumption that all 250 (and ALL of their peers) are fully completely innocent of all crimes speaks to the magnitude of your naivet� towards this situation.
What you really, seriously need to understand is that you are nothing more than the pali ying to the Zionist yang. That is, you are just a weak-kneed hack. |
Sigh. Go back and read my comments, you hot headed and silly little boy. Where did I say that the 250+ prisoners are completely innocent? I never even commented on their innocence one way or another. BTW, they were FATAH. Not the children etc that we were discussing. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. |
Sorry, dumpy, it is you who *sigh* demonstrates illiteracy.
| ddeubel wrote: |
It is nice to see the innocent released from prison, a prison not of their direct making. |
Followed by Mrs. SighCankles
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I agree DD. |
You are just an old hack. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| BTW, they were FATAH. Not the children etc that we were discussing. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. |
.
You old fool, where the *beep* did I say anything about kids or fatah? To suggest I have the reading issues is a tad rich. Do you know what projection is? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| BTW, they were FATAH. Not the children etc that we were discussing. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. |
.
You old fool, where the *beep* did I say anything about kids or fatah? To suggest I have the reading issues is a tad rich. Do you know what projection is? |
I think you and I are speaking a different language. You are clearly a native speaker of gibberish. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Sigh. Go back and read my comments, you hot headed and silly little boy. Where did I say that the 250+ prisoners are completely innocent? I never even commented on their innocence one way or another. |
Sorry, dumpy, it is you who *sigh* demonstrates illiteracy.
| ddeubel wrote: |
It is nice to see the innocent released from prison, a prison not of their direct making. |
Followed by Mrs. SighCankles
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I agree DD. |
You are just an old hack. Nothing more, nothing less.[/quote] |
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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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i realise this is a long post so take your time to read it all
first you need to re read my previous post:
| Quote: |
| I was using the term Israel Eratz |
its eretz israel (the land of israel)
| Quote: |
| to mean 'Greater Israel' |
this is eretz yisrael hashlemah, not the same thing
| Quote: |
| (which is how it's most commonly used, at least as far as I have seen)i.e. an Israel outside the 1967 territory. |
you must read a lot of arab nationalist material then:
| Quote: |
| According to some Arab nationalists, Greater Israel refers to an extremist Zionist conspiracy to stretch the borders of the state of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates according to the kingdom of David in the above mentioned verse from the Bible. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel
| Quote: |
| Actually, it is an ambiguous term as some take it to mean the territory once known as the British Mandate of Palestine, |
see my previous post where i already mentioned this.
| Quote: |
some go a bit futher and want some of Lebanon and Syria, and other nutty religious fundamentalists look at this passage in the bible:
On that day, God made a covenant with Abraham, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Hittites, Perizzites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, *beep* and Jebusites." - Genesis 15:18-21
and take it mean that the territory of Israel should include Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and much more etc. |
see above
| Quote: |
| Israel has never formally declared her borders. |
totally not true
israels broaders were defined in resolution 181 29 November 1947:
| Quote: |
B. THE JEWISH STATE
The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Trans-jordan. It includes the whole of the Huleh Basin, Lake Tiberias, the whole of the Beisan Sub-District, the boundary line being extended to the crest of the Gilboa mountains and the Wadi Malih. From there the Jewish State extends north-west, following the boundary described in respect of the Arab State. The Jewish section of the coastal plain extends from a point between Minat El-Qila and Nabi Yunis in the Gaza Sub-District and includes the towns of Haifa and Tel-Aviv, leaving Jaffa as an enclave of the Arab State. The eastern frontier of the Jewish State follows the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.
The Beersheba area comprises the whole of the Beersheba Sub-District, including the Negeb and the eastern part of the Gaza Sub-District, but excluding the town of Beersheba and those areas described in respect of the Arab State. It includes also a strip of land along the Dead Sea stretching from the Beersheba-Hebron Sub-District boundary line to 'Ein Geddi, as described in respect of the Arab State. |
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm
this is what israel declared in its declaration of independence:
| Quote: |
| ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL. |
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm
| Quote: |
| Another reason why, if I were an Arab, I might be a touch reluctant to acknowledge Israel as a state. What is Israel. How will Israel be reified...? How is Israel's territory defined? Where are her boundries? In the middle of Syria, Lebanon and Egypt? What will I be agreeing to...? |
israel can not declare new borders until it has peace treaties with neighbouring countries, as it has done with egypt.
| Quote: |
| Yes, I'm aware that the Israelis started off as terrorists themselves. |
not all israelis were terrorists (as not all arabs are terrorists)
then you should be aware then of their history
| Quote: |
| the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi formed the Hebrew Resistance Movement. Within this new framework, the three groups had different functions, which served to drive the British out of Palestine and create a Jewish state. As Menachem Begin stated in a 1944 meeting: "In fact, there is a division of roles; One organization advocates individual terrorism (Lehi), the other conducts sporadic military operations (Irgun) and there is a third organization which prepares itself to throw its final weight in the decisive war." This united effort lasted for a total of nine months until the Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel's south wing (then used as a British headquarters). Although the Haganah had sanctioned the operation and the Irgun phoned in two warnings to the British, the hotel was not evacuated and 91 people were killed in the explosion. Shocked by the death toll and worried about the negative image this would generate, the Haganah quickly distanced itself from both the Irgun and Lehi. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah#After_the_war
the haganah lead by ben-gurion became the the moderates and negotiators (similar to fatah) while irgun and others remained terrorists (similar to hamas) but a big difference is that:
| Quote: |
| On May 28, 1948, less than two weeks after the creation of the state of Israel on May 15, the provisional government created the Israeli Defense Forces which would succeed the Haganah. It also outlawed maintenance of any other armed force. |
rather than fighing each other they joined together.
| Quote: |
| But doesn't that make them rather hypocritical when they say stuff like "We will not negotiate with terrorists.." |
so no it doesn't |
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