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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| You can't make a linear comparison, by the way, and then reject that same comparison being taken to the next step. I've never thought of it before, but the cartoon jihad and molestation issue are very similar. The reactions of the "communities" in question are telling... |
If you think that the Catholic Church comes off looking good on the molestation issue, I have to wonder how closely you've been following that whole story.
The main reason that the Church appears to be more active in combatting its miscreants is because the Catholic Church is a single, incorporated organization, which can be held to legal account. When Mount Cashel broke in Newfounldland, for example, the government investigators knew exactly which clerics to subpeona for testimony, and the victims' lawyers knew exactly which organization to sue. Same with the abuse cases in the states.
If Catholicism were as decentralized as Islam is, but still had the same intergenerational all-male clerical subculture, a lot of priests would probably still be raping boys. The only difference is that priests who weren't involved in that sort of thing could shrug it off by saying "yeah, well that's not what Catholicism is really all about", and it would sound somewhat convincing, because there would be no formal, organizational connection between the good priests and the bad priests. And individual Catholic laymen would be even less inclined to apologize for the bad actions of the miscreants.
I remember when the Catholic abuse scandals first broke, and various authorities within the church issued statements that were quite heavy on the "forgiveness" angle. (Forgiving the abusers, that is.) Trust me, there was no immediate rush to critical self-examination. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand: get to the point. I think I see where you are going with this comparison, with this shifting the discussion to the Catholic scandal. But I would like to see you explicitly state it.
What does this say about our criticisms about Islam...? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| If you think that the Catholic Church comes off looking good on the molestation issue, I have to wonder how closely you've been following that whole story. |
No, but Catholics have. The Church is little more than a large money-making operation and the Catholics mindless pawns. Pawns who have accepted defeat quite quietly.
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The main reason that the Church appears to be more active in combatting its miscreants is because the Catholic Church is a single, incorporated organization, which can be held to legal account. When Mount Cashel broke in Newfounldland, for example, the government investigators knew exactly which clerics to subpeona for testimony, and the victims' lawyers knew exactly which organization to sue. Same with the abuse cases in the states. |
That does not even touch the differences in reactions between individual muslims and individual Catholics. You are speaking of organizational differences from their religious masters.
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If Catholicism were as decentralized as Islam is, but still had the same intergenerational all-male clerical subculture, a lot of priests would probably still be raping boys. |
Many priests are, I'm sure. And you can be damn sure that many imams are too. Child molestation (of the heterosexual variety, admittedly) is clearly permitted in the koran, btw. The organizational structure of a religious company won't influence dirty old men who like little boys, IMO.
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I remember when the Catholic abuse scandals first broke, and various authorities within the church issued statements that were quite heavy on the "forgiveness" angle. (Forginving the abusers, that was.) Trust me, there was no immediate rush to critical self-examination. |
I'm not talking about self-examination. I'm talking about violence. I could really care less if Catholics (which my family is solidly half) are self-critical. What I want is for people not to threaten death and act violent in the face of criticism.
But I do disagree. I went to Catholic school from K-10 and a Christian Uni. I can say that there was quite a large amount of self criticism, if my memory serves. My Catholic family members are quite critical of their "faith". Maybe they are the exception.
Catholics are sheep. The sheep will be sheep. The muslims resemble rabid bulldogs. In the very near future, this distinction is going to get harder and harder to toss aside as "generalizations". |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
On the other hand: get to the point. I think I see where you are going with this comparison, with this shifting the discussion to the Catholic scandal. But I would like to see you explicitly state it.
What does this say about our criticisms about Islam...? |
I'm not trying to to distract from any overall critique of Islam by with a "hey look over there" strategy, as you seem to be suggesting. My point is simply this...
Muslim support for terrorism and violence cannot be proven simply by pointing out that Muslims spend more time protesting slights to themselves than they do protesting internal problems with Islam. Because that could be said about almost any religious or cultural group.
Is the Islamic world less democratic than the west? Yes.
Is Islam less tolerant of dissent than Christendon? Yes.
Do some western liberals bend over backwards to defend Muslim misbehaviour that they would denounce in a flash if it were done by Christians? God, yes.
So, yes on all counts. However, none of these questions are what is being discussed in this section of the thread. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Is the Islamic world less democratic than the west? Yes.
Is Islam less tolerant of dissent than Christendon? Yes.
Do some western liberals bend over backwards to defend Muslim misbehaviour that they would denounce in a flash if it were done by Christians? God, yes.
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I guess we are just going to have to agree to agree. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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If Catholicism were as decentralized as Islam is, but still had the same intergenerational all-male clerical subculture, a lot of priests would probably still be raping boys.
Many priests are, I'm sure. And you can be damn sure that many imams are too. Child molestation (of the heterosexual variety, admittedly) is clearly permitted in the koran, btw. The organizational structure of a religious company won't influence dirty old men who like little boys, IMO. |
I wasn't saying that Muslim clerics don't abuse children. Just that the Catholic Church's seeming willingness to confront the problem stems largely from the fact that it is a single organized entity that can be subjected to external pressure.
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I'm not talking about self-examination. I'm talking about violence. I could really care less if Catholics (which my family is solidly half) are self-critical. What I want is for people not to threaten death and act violent in the face of criticism.
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Yeah, again, see my answer to Gopher above. You could probably add "Is there more terrorism in the name of Islam than in the name of Christianity" to my list of questions to which I would give an affirmative answer. But, once more, that is a separate question from Muslim support for terrorism. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: |
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But I do disagree. I went to Catholic school from K-10 and a Christian Uni. I can say that there was quite a large amount of self criticism, if my memory serves. My Catholic family members are quite critical of their "faith". Maybe they are the exception.
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Yeah, I'm guessing that you were a Vatican II kid, like myself. And there was a lot of criticism, up to a point. In religion class, we'd talk about how the Church's ideas about various topics had been outmoded, etc. And I even heard a few priests give homilies in which they said that there should be female priests and whatnot.
But with sexual abuse, it's not just a case of "well, the church made a few mistakes and had some weird ideas in the past, let's work to change that now." It was more like "holy crap, we've been covering up an ongoing and extnesive ring of child rapists, and now the cops and the lawyers are banging down our door." Suffice to say, your average Catholic, clerical or laity, was in no hurry to pick up a bullhorn on that issue. |
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