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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| The callous attitude some people in the United States have towards their fellow citizens and human beings reminds me of the Spartans who left babies to die out in the wild if they didn't look perfect. |
There is another helpful analogy sure to persuade people. |
I am not sure I really care since I saw so many people say if you don't have health insurance then it is your fault. This is a fact that many people have this callous attitude. Even people who want to pay for it sometimes get denied. Doesn't sound like a caring system. It is no different than the Spartans throwing the babies to die if they weren't perfect and had perfect conditions. It is very sad. |
Your analogy is very insulting to the Spartans. The callous attitude many people in the US have towards their fellow citizens has no benefit whatsoever, whereas the Spartan custom prevented the all too natural propensity for human attachment to a growing individual with a weak and sickly body not up for the rigorous education system that most Spartan youths had to undergo. You should not cherry-pick this one custom of Sparta's out of the greater context of Lycurgus' Laws. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Adventurer: it works like this: should you want to convince someone of something, get them to modify their behavior or what-have-you, then I suggest you convince them. Reason with them. Show them how it is in their interest to change the way you want them to change, etc.
If your intention is to insult and shame them, smugly shaking your head in disapproval, comparing them to a pretty harsh culture which you say callously left its unwanted children alone to die, then let me be the first among those you would like to persuade in telling you to piss off, mate. |
I suppose you could take issue with that and find what I said to be offensive, but 18,000 people dying due to a lack of health care I find it to be pretty serious. The end results is citizens letting thousands of their own die. I actually do admire, though Kuros may not know it, many things about Spartan culture. They were upfront for what they stood for, there was no sugar coating, pretending. It was a militaristic culture, things were more transparent, what you saw is what you got. Granted, it was not Athens. Was Sparta necessarily harsher to its Sparants citizenry? You call them callous, but they did not view it as such.
They viewed as surviving among the Hellenes, and they would find what I wrote perhaps offensive and say piss off, but the Athenians would say casting off a child would be wrong. I think casting off citizens, so to speak, and saying it is their problem if they don't have the money for care is callous. Are you saying that America could not prevent the roughly 100,000+ Americans or so who died in the past 10 years from dying by having people have more access to medical care? If the answer is yes, something could have been done, but was not, then it means the citizens, the people of the large Polis is not a Kallipolis or City on the Hill so to speak and is neglecting a large segment. I do take seriously the deaths of people that could have been avoided even if that angers some. As the clergy man John Dunne said "Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee...". |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: |
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Who's gonna pay for Universal health care in the US? Whats going to be covered?
The baby boomers are getting REAL old now. Who's gonna pay for their health care? I don't think people outside of America truely realize how bad it will be when those baby boomers hit the hospitals and social security hard.
All I'm saying is that its real easy for people to point at the US and say "There should be Universal Healthcare".
Universal Healthcare isn't something they sell at convience stores. "Hey Congress, while you're at the store picking up some milk, can you get us some universal health care. The same kind our neighbors, the Canadians bought. You know, the ones the Cubans down the street own. Yeah, that one. Thanks honey, you're the best!" |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
Who's gonna pay for Universal health care in the US? Whats going to be covered?
The baby boomers are getting REAL old now. Who's gonna pay for their health care? I don't think people outside of America truely realize how bad it will be when those baby boomers hit the hospitals and social security hard.
All I'm saying is that its real easy for people to point at the US and say "There should be Universal Healthcare".
Universal Healthcare isn't something they sell at convience stores. "Hey Congress, while you're at the store picking up some milk, can you get us some universal health care. The same kind our neighbors, the Canadians bought. You know, the ones the Cubans down the street own. Yeah, that one. Thanks honey, you're the best!" |
[ The ageing population is a new thing relatively speaking.
It doesn't explain the rationale behind why universal coverage does not exist. It stems from the strong libertarian streak of preferring lower taxes even if it means millions may go without health coverage. A population in the U.S. as large as that of Spain is without coverage.
Universal coverage does not mean that every person will be visiting the doctor frequently and that costs will be higher to the economy than they would be without it. That is not really convincing. There are many who actually say that not having universal health care actually costs the U.S. more than not having it. The difference is that it helps those who don't want to pay for others to have access to keep the money they've earned in their pocket. After all, a person going to the doctor can be viewed unlike pitching in for a high way. Your neighbour doesn't really need for you to be able to have chemotherapy. If you die, and he saves on his taxes, he benefits on a surface level. As cynical as that sounds, that is the reality out there. |
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