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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
whether or not these were alien craft I dont know, but I get annoyed by one thing: Why do people talk about the idea if aliens as it it is non sense? What is really so hard to beleive about the possibility, that maybe people from a much much older civilization then us, more advanced, have mastered space travel and ended up finding our Earth in their exploration? is that really so ahrd to believe, even as discoveries mount of planets in far off solar systems, and when they launcht he even more sneistive scopes such as the inferometer, new Earth like planets will be found in addition to the 2 more earth like worlds found outside our solare system.
To be the disbelief at that possibility centers at some people's arrogant belief that human technology is the most advanced, and they could fathom some civilization being able to travel between the stars. |
The sole objection is a civilization has cracked faster than light travel. While not impossible, it's the sole part of the plausibility chain that is a wild guess. You make take it on faith this is possible and lots of scientists take it on faith that one day we'll figure out a way but for now we simply don't invoke an unknown to explain what can already be explained by the earthy and ultimately mundane. Hence, we need to apply Occam's razor and not invent an entity until evidence demands it.
That evidence would be some real object that can be studied like a hunk of metal or a body. Slightly down the scale would be some piece of knowledge that has no clear evidence of originating via earthly means. There are lots of math problems, for example, that can be solved but haven't until computing power takes a big leap. An advanced civilization could solve that math problem and present the answer by some means. That would be evidence.
I really don't know where UFO believers get the idea skeptics hold this belief about the primacy of our technology. I think most skeptics (save for the "rare earth" types) really believe the universe is full of advanced civilizations, more advanced than our own. Given what we know about the fallibility of human perception, they just would like some solid evidence. That's all. You claim there's a new species of monk fish, produce a sample. The same rule holds for a claim about the existence of any creature. It's that simple.
Anyway, if you have some quotes from UFO skeptics that support your claim we assume we're the most advanced, then please provide it. Otherwise, you're just creating a strawman argument. |
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Gatsby
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Message to self: When answering a question, I suppose it is a good idea to actually read the question.
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| What do you make of this... UFO or hoax? |
Answer: why would the Mexican Air Force perpetrate a hoax?
These pilots saw and photographed something flying around they could not identify. Therefore, they saw a UFO, or several of them. UFO: Unidentified Flying Object. They COULD NOT IDENTIFY THEM. Get it? UFO?
NOw lets make a leap of faith and assume they are from someplace other than this Earth, at least at this time. Maybe they could be from Earth, but from another time. Who knows?
Now, if you have seen the original film version of The Time Machine, there is a point where the time traveler is moving into the future and there is a mountain around him. If he had stopped, he would have been encased in solid rock.
The same thing could hypothetically happen if a machine were moving from another dimension into this one: There is no assurance that the space the machine would occupy would be available. Kinda like two cars trying to use the same parking space, if you have ever tried that. So the time traveler didn't stop; he kept on moving forward.
You want to overcome the speed limit for travel within time and space? Then go outside time and space. Just make sure when you return you don't go into a cloud with a rock in it, so to speak. Or a plane. Or a bird. So a good place to materialize your craft would be well above the atmosphere, right? If UFOs can do this dimension shifting, you would expect them to come from the upper atmosphere, but that doesn't mean they have been traveling through deep space. Fo all we know, they could be us, from the far distant future.
Who knows? |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
whether or not these were alien craft I dont know, but I get annoyed by one thing: Why do people talk about the idea if aliens as it it is non sense? What is really so hard to beleive about the possibility, that maybe people from a much much older civilization then us, more advanced, have mastered space travel and ended up finding our Earth in their exploration? is that really so ahrd to believe, even as discoveries mount of planets in far off solar systems, and when they launcht he even more sneistive scopes such as the inferometer, new Earth like planets will be found in addition to the 2 more earth like worlds found outside our solare system.
To be the disbelief at that possibility centers at some people's arrogant belief that human technology is the most advanced, and they could fathom some civilization being able to travel between the stars. |
The sole objection is a civilization has cracked faster than light travel. While not impossible, it's the sole part of the plausibility chain that is a wild guess. You make take it on faith this is possible and lots of scientists take it on faith that one day we'll figure out a way but for now we simply don't invoke an unknown to explain what can already be explained by the earthy and ultimately mundane. Hence, we need to apply Occam's razor and not invent an entity until evidence demands it.
That evidence would be some real object that can be studied like a hunk of metal or a body. Slightly down the scale would be some piece of knowledge that has no clear evidence of originating via earthly means. There are lots of math problems, for example, that can be solved but haven't until computing power takes a big leap. An advanced civilization could solve that math problem and present the answer by some means. That would be evidence.
I really don't know where UFO believers get the idea skeptics hold this belief about the primacy of our technology. I think most skeptics (save for the "rare earth" types) really believe the universe is full of advanced civilizations, more advanced than our own. Given what we know about the fallibility of human perception, they just would like some solid evidence. That's all. You claim there's a new species of monk fish, produce a sample. The same rule holds for a claim about the existence of any creature. It's that simple.
Anyway, if you have some quotes from UFO skeptics that support your claim we assume we're the most advanced, then please provide it. Otherwise, you're just creating a strawman argument. |
They haventmade any statements about our primacy but they have acted in such a manner, such as denying that a aliencivilization could do it just because we cant.
Faster thenlght? says who? thats another assumption peoplemake is that you need speed tio do this. Nottrue.if a civilization had mastrered control ofgravirty they coulddo it by that means.
Gravity is aextremly strong force, as evident by the fact that gravityaround a blackholewarps the very fabric of space near it. So a civilization that had mastered gravity could buildsomesort of gravitya amplification device and use it to warp space for the purpose of travel from point to point. Speed isnt theonly option. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| Gravity is aextremly strong force, as evident by the fact that gravityaround a blackholewarps the very fabric of space near it. So a civilization that had mastered gravity could buildsomesort of gravitya amplification device and use it to warp space for the purpose of travel from point to point. Speed isnt theonly option. |
Are other people reading this?
What the hell? |
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Treefarmer
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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they are ufos, but there are lots of UFOs, it doesn't mean that they are alien space craft, they could be, or they could just be some weather phenomenon....
here is some really good footage of what are undoubtedly alien spacecraft, filmed with a very good video camera
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qcUYALbg8 |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Its convenient to say that they are extraterrestrials so that the US doesnt have to disclose the existence of its advanced flight technologies
..... i dont know if i am joking or not  |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| Gravity is aextremly strong force, as evident by the fact that gravityaround a blackholewarps the very fabric of space near it. So a civilization that had mastered gravity could buildsomesort of gravitya amplification device and use it to warp space for the purpose of travel from point to point. Speed isnt theonly option. |
Are other people reading this?
What the hell? |
i didnt read that... too long |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| They haventmade any statements about our primacy but they have acted in such a manner, such as denying that a aliencivilization could do it just because we cant. |
Okay could you find a quote where a noted UFO skeptic denies another civilization has cracked the FTL barrier?
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| Faster thenlght? says who? thats another assumption peoplemake is that you need speed tio do this. Nottrue.if a civilization had mastrered control ofgravirty they coulddo it by that means. |
In any regard, a means must be found to counter the vast distances.
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| Gravity is aextremly strong force |
Actually, no. Can you find one physicist that calls gravity an extremely strong force? It's a very weak force. And such is easy to demonstrate. We can counter the gravitational pull of an entire planet by simply standing. The gravitational force between you and the doctor that delivered you is greater than that between you and all the planets in the solar system.
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| , as evident by the fact that gravityaround a blackholewarps the very fabric of space near it. So a civilization that had mastered gravity could buildsomesort of gravitya amplification device and use it to warp space for the purpose of travel from point to point. Speed isnt theonly option. |
That's all nice in theory but mass = energy. How much energy is needed to create the mass of a black hole?
Anyway, again, possible but you're still inventing unknowns to explain what is already explained by the mundane.
We have two hypothesises on the table to account for UFOs:
1) Space aliens or some kind of unknown advanced being.
2) Hoaxes and mistaken identity.
Each explains the data. In the first case, you also need to invoke an unknown. That violates Occam's Razor. So we need some good evidence. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| Gravity is aextremly strong force, as evident by the fact that gravityaround a blackholewarps the very fabric of space near it. So a civilization that had mastered gravity could buildsomesort of gravitya amplification device and use it to warp space for the purpose of travel from point to point. Speed isnt theonly option. |
Are other people reading this?
What the hell? |
It was a reasonable point. Spacetime is subject to distortion by matter. It is theoretically conceivable to travel from point A to point B and take a substantial shortcut. Traveling such vast distances in the conventional fashion via fuel and light-speed (or above light speed) travel should definitely be ruled out, most interestingly (in my opinion) for the reason that time slows down at such speeds and these creatures would return to their worlds in a completely different time, having aged substantially less. Everyone they knew would be gone and their technology possibly out-dated.
Skeptics should keep more of an open mind about the possibilities. Unfortunately, openmindedness about alien visits is rather like climate change skepticism - seen as totally unserious buffoonery.
Visits from future human civilizations should also be ruled out because of the numerous problems backwards time travel has. Were such travel possible, it must be possible in a way that does not alter the present in any way, which includes people witnessing these machines on their visits, I suspect. My favorite backwards time travel paradox is if you went back in time and shot Hitler at birth, that would mean that in the present, there is no need to shoot Hitler at birth because there was no such figure as Hitler. 'Terminator' suffers from this. John Connor sent his own, younger father back in time and the terminators were invented thanks to debris from the first failed terminator mission - meaning the terminators' (and John Connor's) origin is in the future...which is impossible and absurd. Since it seems impossible to travel to (certainly alter) the past, I don't fancy the chances of future beings traveling to (and certainly altering) the present. Any such sighting of a future time machine is an influence on the present/past. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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You are not entitled to conclude that what you saw is evidence of an intergalactic space ship.
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I don't believe made that conclusion. I made the conclusion that you can see something that could or could not be a alien space craft and it wont matter until it can be proven in a scientific process. As I saw it for a few seconds, that situation can not be recreated or studied, science will put it on a back burner as the guy on CNN said. Until they have a physical object it wont matter what people see or don't see.
Personally, I don't want thier to be aliens. We can't even communicate with our animals well on this planet and if you look at how the chinese treat all animals as food. All we would need is an alien who come from a different biological makeup and thought that the Chinese desire to eat shark fin was a prime example of genocide and made us their enemies. |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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maybe slow down on the drinking and you will see fewer UFO's |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| They haventmade any statements about our primacy but they have acted in such a manner, such as denying that a aliencivilization could do it just because we cant. |
Okay could you find a quote where a noted UFO skeptic denies another civilization has cracked the FTL barrier?
| Quote: |
| Faster thenlght? says who? thats another assumption peoplemake is that you need speed tio do this. Nottrue.if a civilization had mastrered control ofgravirty they coulddo it by that means. |
In any regard, a means must be found to counter the vast distances.
| Quote: |
| Gravity is aextremly strong force |
Actually, no. Can you find one physicist that calls gravity an extremely strong force? It's a very weak force. And such is easy to demonstrate. We can counter the gravitational pull of an entire planet by simply standing. The gravitational force between you and the doctor that delivered you is greater than that between you and all the planets in the solar system.
| Quote: |
| , as evident by the fact that gravityaround a blackholewarps the very fabric of space near it. So a civilization that had mastered gravity could buildsomesort of gravitya amplification device and use it to warp space for the purpose of travel from point to point. Speed isnt theonly option. |
That's all nice in theory but mass = energy. How much energy is needed to create the mass of a black hole?
Anyway, again, possible but you're still inventing unknowns to explain what is already explained by the mundane.
We have two hypothesises on the table to account for UFOs:
1) Space aliens or some kind of unknown advanced being.
2) Hoaxes and mistaken identity.
Each explains the data. In the first case, you also need to invoke an unknown. That violates Occam's Razor. So we need some good evidence. |
A "weak force" if you are referring to it as one of the 4 fores (nuclear, weak, strong etc)
but the fact remains. The gravity around a black hole is so strong it warps time and space and any civilization who mastered gravity and could amplify its effects could use it to warp space (see: bob lazar)
The fact is any technology sufficiently advanced would seem almost like magic to a lesser civilization. In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
Oh, a lot of people have swallowed it. They also swallowed Big Foot, pyramid power, ESP, ghosts, Uri Gellar, a righteous Iraq War, religion, free love, winning at three card monty, The Loch Ness monster, intelligent design,.... Do I have continue listing the things people believe to be true because they want it to be true? |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
Oh, a lot of people have swallowed it. They also swallowed Big Foot, pyramid power, ESP, ghosts, Uri Gellar, a righteous Iraq War, religion, free love, winning at three card monty, The Loch Ness monster, intelligent design,.... Do I have continue listing the things people believe to be true because they want it to be true? |
Ok but the lochhness monster etc is composed manily of stories.. the fact that there are other beings in the universe is something we can investigate scientifcally...as huge as the universe iss aying humanity is the only ones is kind of arrogant. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
A "weak force" if you are referring to it as one of the 4 fores (nuclear, weak, strong etc)
but the fact remains. The gravity around a black hole is so strong it warps time and space and any civilization who mastered gravity and could amplify its effects could use it to warp space (see: bob lazar) |
If Bob Lazar is your source, there's a lot of problems there. Anyway, again, it requires massive amounts of energy to create the mass of a black hole. And even if you could, so what? Where is the science that says you can use black holes for long trips? It warps space and time as in time stops for anything that has moved beyond the event horizon. And is torn apart and eventually returned to the universe in the form of Hawking radiation. How is this used for travel, now?
You're free to invoke some Harry Potter device that "amplifies" gravity but that's huge, huge speculation. I mean, maybe, but if that's at the heart of your belief that UFOs are space aliens and not products of hoaxes and misidentifications then you're really, really, really stretching.
| Quote: |
| In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
It's a cute fantasy but there's a major sticking point as discussed. What's the safe money bet? Sorry, my safe money bet is on the human psychology hypothesis, not the ET hypothesis.
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| the fact that there are other beings in the universe is something we can investigate scientifcally...as huge as the universe iss aying humanity is the only ones is kind of arrogant. |
You keep returning to this point without offering evidence of who is actually saying that. Yes, there are no doubt more advanced civilizations out there in the great universe. Maybe even some in our galaxy. That's a probability argument. The Drake Equation lets us make some reasonable estimates. However, you launch into grand speculation when you talk about faster than light travel or gravity amplification. That's all cool but using an unknown to explain an unknown is bad logic.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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