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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| arjuna wrote: |
Gilad Atzmon
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a disgruntled israeli jazz musician who now lives in london and who studied some philosophy.
theres a reliable source for forming your opinions  |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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I also agree it is horrible for civilians (or even military) to be killed.
That said, I think it preposterous as declared above, that there is any equality in the "deaths" and suffering. Total hogwash to take any stance which sees some equality in the suffering and deaths of the two nations. My god, how can that even be considered by an observer. Reminds me of the Lebanon situation where thousands are killed, injured and we have small numbers of Israelis killed - yet it is all treated as "equal". That is the imbalance I believe BB is talking about.
There will be no peace without addressing the gross inhuman treatment and suffering/violence Israel has inflicted on Palestine. No peace. Yet Israel rejects this notion categorically saying "we obey all international law, we only kill criminals, we never target civilians, we look out for the welfare of these states, we are lawful and everything is by the book." That is BS and unless they address that stance, nothing is going anywhere at all. Israel needs a leader with the courage to admit its mistakes and immorality, as does Palestine.
DD |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I also agree it is horrible for civilians (or even military) to be killed.
That said, I think it preposterous as declared above, that there is any equality in the "deaths" and suffering. Total hogwash to take any stance which sees some equality in the suffering and deaths of the two nations. My god, how can that even be considered by an observer. Reminds me of the Lebanon situation where thousands are killed, injured and we have small numbers of Israelis killed - yet it is all treated as "equal". That is the imbalance I believe BB is talking about.
There will be no peace without addressing the gross inhuman treatment and suffering/violence Israel has inflicted on Palestine. No peace. Yet Israel rejects this notion categorically saying "we obey all international law, we only kill criminals, we never target civilians, we look out for the welfare of these states, we are lawful and everything is by the book." That is BS and unless they address that stance, nothing is going anywhere at all. Israel needs a leader with the courage to admit its mistakes and immorality, as does Palestine.
DD |
what a fights for counts.
The US killed more Japanese than the Japanese killed Americans during WW II.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who cares about Palestinians?
Posted: August 23, 2001
1:00 a.m. Eastern
by Joseph Farah
Who really cares about the human rights of Palestinian Arabs?
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other Muslim nations have warned Israel, in various ways and with different degrees of intensity, over the Jewish state's alleged mistreatment of Palestinian Arabs.
There's one major problem with these threats. These nations have done far less for Arab Palestinians than Israel has.
That's right. I said it, and I mean it.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.
The Jordan Times reports that "Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, who have long been denied many civil rights including the right to work, now face a new obstacle in their precarious lives."
Under a bill introduced by parliament earlier this year, Palestinian Arabs will be deprived of their right to own property. Those who already own property will not be able to pass it on to their children.
Now just imagine if Israel passed such a law? Can you imagine the international outcry? What would the United Nations have to say about this? How long would it take to equate Zionism with racism again? How would the media establishment in the West view such a draconian ploy?
Yet, this is happening in an Arab country virtually without comment � except here.
And take a look at the transparent rationale for this action in Lebanon, as described in the Jordan Times: "The Lebanese parliament passed the law on the grounds that it wants to protect the right of the Palestinian refugees to return eventually to their homes which they fled after the creation of the state of Israel on Palestinian lands in 1948."
Don't you love that? We are protecting your rights by denying your rights. Only in the Arab world could such hypocritical duplicity occur without international ridicule and universal denunciation.
Keep in mind that most Palestinian refugees today were born well after 1948. They never lived in the land called Palestine. And the reason is that their Arab neighbors have been so inhospitable to them. They have not allowed them to resettle because Arab leaders are determined to fan the flames of hate with Israel. They want to keep this scapegoat issue of a Palestinian homeland alive so that the Arab people don't turn their enmity toward their own leadership and begin questioning why they are deprived of their own human rights.
Lebanon, by the way, is a virtual client state of Syria. It is occupied by the Syrian army. No significant political decision is made in Beirut without the approval and direction of Damascus. And it is Damascus, more than any other Arab capital, that supports the Arab terror campaign in Israel, that undermines every attempt at peaceful reconciliation between Arab and Jew and that has orchestrated this strategy of actively denying Palestinians their human rights in the name of Palestinian human rights.
How bad is the situation in Lebanon? Here are more details as reported by the Jordan Times � not exactly a mouthpiece for the vast international Zionist conspiracy:
Under the Lebanese labor law that governs foreigners, Palestinians are denied 74 forms of employment;
Palestinians face tight exit and entry requirements;
Palestinians in Lebanon are not allowed citizenship;
Palestinians are confined to 12 camps with no medical, social or educational services from the government and are barred in some of those camps from building or even repairing homes.
Some in Lebanon have even recognized the "racist" nature of this anti-Palestinian campaign � policies far worse than anything ever contemplated by Israel.
Yet, more than half a million Syrians marched earlier this week in support of the Palestinian uprising in Israel, chastising the Jewish state for "Nazi and fascist" practices. Do those Syrian citizens have any idea of what kind of oppression Palestinian Arabs face next door in Lebanon? Do they have any idea that their government is directly supporting such policies? Are they aware that more Syrian troops are headed to Lebanon now to support the Beirut regime that has imposed such repressive measures?
While Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate the Palestinian Arabs � especially those victimized by the 1948 war � the Arab nations have only sought to exploit their misery. That exploitation continues today. It is overt. It is a matter of law. Yet the world sees it not. |
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170
Now is there anything in this article that is not so? |
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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| I also agree it is horrible for civilians (or even military) to be killed. |
at least this a statement of some intelligence
| ddeubel wrote: |
| That said, I think it preposterous as declared above, that there is any equality in the "deaths" and suffering. Total hogwash to take any stance which sees some equality in the suffering and deaths of the two nations. My god, how can that even be considered by an observer. Reminds me of the Lebanon situation where thousands are killed, injured and we have small numbers of Israelis killed - yet it is all treated as "equal". That is the imbalance I believe BB is talking about. |
but then you're back to your usual self, who said anything about equality of suffering? how do measure that anyway? just by numbers? the loss of a child, brother, sister, father , mother etc is the same regardless of what nation you're from.
you're a very cold person to reduce human suffering to mere numbers.
both sides have suffered, its not a contest of who has suffered more. its how to stop the suffering and needless deaths on both sides.
| Quote: |
There will be no peace without addressing the gross inhuman treatment and suffering/violence Israel has inflicted on Palestine. No peace. Yet Israel rejects this notion categorically saying "we obey all international law, we only kill criminals, we never target civilians, we look out for the welfare of these states, we are lawful and everything is by the book." That is BS and unless they address that stance, nothing is going anywhere at all. Israel needs a leader with the courage to admit its mistakes and immorality, as does Palestine.
DD |
completely wrong (no surprise there), this type of thinking only continues ill will and fighting. no side would admit to anything like this while armed conflict exists. if any side did it would only be fuel for the other side to continue violence.
only once peace is established and there is dialogue can such issues can be addressed by all sides involved. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| That said, I think it preposterous as declared above, that there is any equality in the "deaths" and suffering. Total hogwash to take any stance which sees some equality in the suffering and deaths of the two nations. My god, how can that even be considered by an observer. Reminds me of the Lebanon situation where thousands are killed, injured and we have small numbers of Israelis killed - yet it is all treated as "equal". That is the imbalance I believe BB is talking about. |
but then you're back to your usual self, who said anything about equality of suffering? how do measure that anyway? just by numbers? the loss of a child, brother, sister, father , mother etc is the same regardless of what nation you're from.
you're a very cold person to reduce human suffering to mere numbers.
both sides have suffered, its not a contest of who has suffered more. its how to stop the suffering and needless deaths on both sides.
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You have gone taken it upon yourself to interpret DD in a very simplistic way. He is not advocating each side should earn a certain quota of sympathy, to be determined by the number of casualties. He is pointing out, quite correctly, that more handwringing is done on account of Israeli suffering than Arab suffering EVEN DESPITE the fact that far more Arabs are affected than Israelis. Frankly, we do not view an Arab victim with the same gravity we view an equivalent Israeli victim. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
i agree that it is terrible what is happening to civilians on both sides but "us and we" are not going to make the difference. the fate of palestinian lives are in the hands of their leadership. once hamas stops shooting and starts talking the lives of their people will improve. |
If that were but true. But it is not, and only the most naive of observers could really believe this. The Palestinian side have tried eschewing violence before. Yes even Hamas has tried it. But Israel (or at least her leadership) is not prepared to make peace if it requires giving up huge swathes of West Bank prime real estate. Peace is not worth giving up her acquisition program. I can't be bothered to try convincing you. However, your assertion that it's all about the rascally Palestinian leadership is quite quite wrong.
| Quote: |
| btw the conditions for the palestinains in camps outside of the west bank and gaza are worse, makes you wonder how much arabs really care about their follow brothers and sisters: |
So what is your point exactly? Can I bash my husband all about the place and justify it by saying the woman down the road hits hers twice as much, so what I'm doing is OK.
Anyway, I'm not sure that your assertion stands anymore, especially since 2000. The Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank live under greater threat of life and limb these days. |
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just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Big_Bird"]
| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
i agree that it is terrible what is happening to civilians on both sides but "us and we" are not going to make the difference. the fate of palestinian lives are in the hands of their leadership. once hamas stops shooting and starts talking the lives of their people will improve.
If that were but true. But it is not, and only the most naive of observers could really believe this. The Palestinian side have tried eschewing violence before. Yes even Hamas has tried it. But Israel (or at least her leadership) is not prepared to make peace if it requires giving up huge swathes of West Bank prime real estate. Peace is not worth giving up her acquisition program. I can't be bothered to try convincing you. However, your assertion that it's all about the rascally Palestinian leadership is quite quite wrong. |
its disappointing that you and dd revert to name calling when people disagree with your opinions. i am not naive, uneducated nor an observer. i have lived and worked in israel and witnessed the reality of this situation for arabs and israelis first hand.
the idea that israel wants to acquire more land or push it boarders out further, the idea of greater israel, is just propaganda, as is the idea of a greater syria. (i have already dealt with your erroneous thoughts on this topic here http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=93638&start=15)
israel withdrew from sinai giving up land and settlements and forcefully relocating its own people, for peace. and recently from gaza but now they get attacked. israel will give up land again but for real peace.
i never used the term rascally. again it is sad that you revert to trying to trivialise my argument to bolster yours.
what i said was when hamas lay down their guns and negotiate then conditions will start to improve for those in the gaza, as it is beginning (slowly) to happen for those in the west bank.
| Quote: |
btw the conditions for the palestinains in camps outside of the west bank and gaza are worse makes you wonder how much arabs really care about their follow brothers and sisters:
So what is your point exactly? Can I bash my husband all about the place and justify it by saying the woman down the road hits hers twice as much, so what I'm doing is OK.
Anyway, I'm not sure that your assertion stands anymore, especially since 2000. The Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank live under greater threat of life and limb these days. |
my point is you complain about the neighbour throwing stones at your husband while your brother beats him inside your home.
if you really cared about those in the camps you would not only criticise israel but the arab states that also contribute to their suffering.
the assertion is not mine but of nubar hovsepian, associate professor of political science and international studies. he specializes in comparative politics and international relations, with research and teaching interests in middle east politics, state formation and educational institutions, democratic processes, nationalism and social movements, and the palestinian-israeli conflict, as well as being the assertion of many others.
it is also extremely relevant. the article i quoted is dated june 2007. |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
Gilad Atzmon |
a disgruntled israeli jazz musician who now lives in london and who studied some philosophy.
theres a reliable source for forming your opinions |
You may or may not be talking to me directly, but... I never rely on any human for forming my opinions, of which I have few. One of them is that most humans are pitifully ignorant and tragically arrogant. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| But it is not, and only the most naive of observers could really believe this. The Palestinian side have tried eschewing violence before. Yes even Hamas has tried |
It's like you refuse to acknowledge that it even matters that Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. THey put it in their charter...oh yeah they wanted peace (I suppose you don't know the Islamic terms and reasons for a truce do you?) |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| just alittlecrazy wrote: |
i agree that it is terrible what is happening to civilians on both sides but "us and we" are not going to make the difference. the fate of palestinian lives are in the hands of their leadership. once hamas stops shooting and starts talking the lives of their people will improve.
If that were but true. But it is not, and only the most naive of observers could really believe this. The Palestinian side have tried eschewing violence before. Yes even Hamas has tried it. But Israel (or at least her leadership) is not prepared to make peace if it requires giving up huge swathes of West Bank prime real estate. Peace is not worth giving up her acquisition program. I can't be bothered to try convincing you. However, your assertion that it's all about the rascally Palestinian leadership is quite quite wrong. |
its disappointing that you and dd revert to name calling when people disagree with your opinions. i am not naive, uneducated nor an observer. i have lived and worked in israel and witnessed the reality of this situation for arabs and israelis first hand.
the idea that israel wants to acquire more land or push it boarders out further, the idea of greater israel, is just propaganda, as is the idea of a greater syria. (i have already dealt with your erroneous thoughts on this topic here http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=93638&start=15)
israel withdrew from sinai giving up land and settlements and forcefully relocating its own people, for peace. and recently from gaza but now they get attacked. israel will give up land again but for real peace.
i never used the term rascally. again it is sad that you revert to trying to trivialise my argument to bolster yours.
what i said was when hamas lay down their guns and negotiate then conditions will start to improve for those in the gaza, as it is beginning (slowly) to happen for those in the west bank. |
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I don't feel any particular disrespect for you JALC. Also, after your mischeivous misrepresentation of DD, I'm not sure if you retain such high moral ground, AND you've not been spending much time on this forum if you find that particularly offensive, believe you me.  However, I will not take my comment back about it being naive for people to believe all this is down to the Palestinians. Anyone with this view is either a) short of the facts, b) very naive. I've argued here before in detail why this view is naive, but have neither the time nor the inclination to do so today. The Palestinians are damned whatever they do. They can be sweet as sugar candy, or they can be arseholes. The Israelis will always find their pretext. Sure the majority of Israeli people would be quite happy to hand back the territories. The elite has no intention of doing so. Hamas did lay down their arms, and held a ceasefire for 16 months. It got them nowhere. In fact, it was very inconvenient for Israel and her allies, if anything.
The fact that you've spent time in Israel means nothing, you get your info from the news just like anyone else. I have spoken to many who have lived there, including Israelis who served in the territories and so forth. They have some harrowing tales to tell. Perhaps if you've been working as a medic or journalisit in the West Bank, you'd have something interesting to tell me.
Israel gave back Sinai because the US made them do so. They gave back Gaza because it was a pain in the arse, only had a few thousand settlers anyway (only the most radical zionists wanted it) and by giving it back, they hoped it would indirectly serve to help them keep their grip on parts of the West Bank.
This conflict is about land. Security is a secondary issue.
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| Quote: |
btw the conditions for the palestinains in camps outside of the west bank and gaza are worse makes you wonder how much arabs really care about their follow brothers and sisters:
So what is your point exactly? Can I bash my husband all about the place and justify it by saying the woman down the road hits hers twice as much, so what I'm doing is OK.
Anyway, I'm not sure that your assertion stands anymore, especially since 2000. The Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank live under greater threat of life and limb these days. |
my point is you complain about the neighbour throwing stones at your husband while your brother beats him inside your home.
if you really cared about those in the camps you would not only criticise israel but the arab states that also contribute to their suffering.
the assertion is not mine but of nubar hovsepian, associate professor of political science and international studies. he specializes in comparative politics and international relations, with research and teaching interests in middle east politics, state formation and educational institutions, democratic processes, nationalism and social movements, and the palestinian-israeli conflict, as well as being the assertion of many others.
it is also extremely relevant. the article i quoted is dated june 2007. |
The fact that my neighbour's brother-in-law beats him up is no justification for me to be throwing stones at him. I don't steal chocolate bars from the corner shop and say to myself, well this is fine because some people burgle houses! Nor do I collude in my friend stealing the chocolate using this justification. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I .
There will be no peace without addressing the gross inhuman treatment and suffering/violence Israel has inflicted on Palestine. No peace., DD |
There will be no peace until Hamas lays down its arms. Look at what the Israelis are doing with the West Bank. They've freed up funds and are letting money through. Hamas in Gaza has brought misery on itself and its people by refusing to renounce its call for Israel's destruction.
As long as Hamas calls for the destruction of an entire nation and its people "gross inhuman treatment and suffering/violence" are the just deserts of that pyschopathic and Nazi-like behaviour.
The End. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Hamas markets Gaza as "safe, clean and green"
By Dion Nissenbaum
McClatchy Newspapers
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip � If you think of the Gaza Strip as a volatile, violent battleground run by fanatic Islamist militants bent on destroying Israel, Hamas wants you to think again.
Think: "Safe, clean and green."
One month after seizing the Gaza Strip in a military rout that shattered brittle Palestinian unity, Hamas is embarking on a radical marketing campaign to promote what it calls "the new face of Gaza."
They call it the "Gaza Riviera."
Lime-green Hamas banners flutter over Gaza City with a message in English for aid workers and journalists worried about being kidnapped: "No more threat for our foreign visitors and guests."
Bearded gunmen in blue-gray camouflage uniforms who helped seize control of Gaza now rush to settle routine neighborhood squabbles and family disputes.
Once-deserted Mediterranean beaches now are filled with dozens of families holding picnics to escape the summer heat until long after midnight.
Monday, Hamas is planning to take journalists on a special tour, from the packed beaches to the bullet-scarred security compounds its Islamist fighters overran last month when they ousted Fatah forces loyal to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.
While the United States and Israel are working to help Abbas transform the West Bank into a model of pro-Western modernity � and isolate and marginalize Hamas in the Gaza Strip in the process � Hamas is working to assure the world that it has no plans to turn the Gaza Strip into a Taliban-style police state.
"This is our new Riviera," boasted Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar. "This is the most secure period in the history of Gaza."
Using a mix of military force and political persuasion, Hamas has succeeded in creating a sense of safety in the Gaza Strip. But many Palestinians don't believe this quiet will last long.
Attacks on Internet cafes have come to a halt. For now, rival Gaza Strip families have stopped taking up arms to resolve disputes. And fears of renewed factional fighting between disciplined Hamas forces and demoralized Fatah fighters are virtually nil.
But Hamas hasn't reined in Islamic Jihad and other militant groups, which regularly fire Qassam rockets at southern Israeli towns and could provoke an Israeli invasion. Israel routinely responds by launching airstrikes on Palestinian militants. On Thursday alone, five Palestinians were killed in several Israeli airstrikes.
The Hamas "safe streets" marketing campaign also obscures intractable problems facing Hamas � which was the leading perpetrator of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians between 2000 and 2005 � as it tries to use its impoverished base in Gaza to establish itself as a central political player in the new Middle East.
Hundreds of Gaza Strip police officers, judges and soldiers loyal to Abbas refuse to work for Hamas. Israel allows almost nothing but critical food and medical supplies across its border with Gaza, creating a shortage of everything from cigarettes to concrete mix. Major Gaza Strip factories, unable to get raw material in and finished goods out, have been shuttered.
U.N. officials and humanitarian groups have warned that the battered economy is in danger of collapse. And growing numbers of middle-class families quietly are preparing to escape as soon as the borders open.
Sitting on a southern Gaza Strip beach, Ahmed Yousef, the Hamas leader behind the "safe, clean and green" slogan, said his group has no plans to impose strict Islamic rule on the 1.5 million residents.
"If we succeed here, the people in the West Bank will keep looking to this model," Yousef said. "We don't want to promote the way of the Taliban."
Although Hamas still refuses to accept Israel as a neighbor, he urged Israel and the world to work with the group.
"You can actually deal with Hamas and work with them to moderate them," he said. "Don't make them your enemy."
Copyright � 2007 The Seattle Times Company
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003810962&zsection_id=2002107549&slug=gaza29&date=20070729 |
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