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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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 Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
A "weak force" if you are referring to it as one of the 4 fores (nuclear, weak, strong etc)
but the fact remains. The gravity around a black hole is so strong it warps time and space and any civilization who mastered gravity and could amplify its effects could use it to warp space (see: bob lazar) |
If Bob Lazar is your source, there's a lot of problems there. Anyway, again, it requires massive amounts of energy to create the mass of a black hole. And even if you could, so what? Where is the science that says you can use black holes for long trips? It warps space and time as in time stops for anything that has moved beyond the event horizon. And is torn apart and eventually returned to the universe in the form of Hawking radiation. How is this used for travel, now?
You're free to invoke some Harry Potter device that "amplifies" gravity but that's huge, huge speculation. I mean, maybe, but if that's at the heart of your belief that UFOs are space aliens and not products of hoaxes and misidentifications then you're really, really, really stretching.
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| In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
It's a cute fantasy but there's a major sticking point as discussed. What's the safe money bet? Sorry, my safe money bet is on the human psychology hypothesis, not the ET hypothesis. |
who said you would need the force of a black hole?> I just cited the black hole as a instance of space time being distorted, but a black hole warps massive amounts of space time at once. Now for a craft trying to go from one solar system to the next how much need be distorted to take a short cut? not sure. But space tike distortion is very possible. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
A "weak force" if you are referring to it as one of the 4 fores (nuclear, weak, strong etc)
but the fact remains. The gravity around a black hole is so strong it warps time and space and any civilization who mastered gravity and could amplify its effects could use it to warp space (see: bob lazar) |
If Bob Lazar is your source, there's a lot of problems there. Anyway, again, it requires massive amounts of energy to create the mass of a black hole. And even if you could, so what? Where is the science that says you can use black holes for long trips? It warps space and time as in time stops for anything that has moved beyond the event horizon. And is torn apart and eventually returned to the universe in the form of Hawking radiation. How is this used for travel, now?
You're free to invoke some Harry Potter device that "amplifies" gravity but that's huge, huge speculation. I mean, maybe, but if that's at the heart of your belief that UFOs are space aliens and not products of hoaxes and misidentifications then you're really, really, really stretching.
| Quote: |
| In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
It's a cute fantasy but there's a major sticking point as discussed. What's the safe money bet? Sorry, my safe money bet is on the human psychology hypothesis, not the ET hypothesis. |
"my safe money bet is on the human psychology hypothesis, not the ET hypothesis.[/quote"
Psychology? like hallucinations and mental disorers? Oh please. So over the last 50 years of UFO reporting your saying millions have had the exact same hallucination all over the world and had the same mental disorder in the exact same fashion? Highly unlikely. |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Alians are not mentioned in the Bible, I think. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| Psychology? like hallucinations and mental disorers? Oh please. So over the last 50 years of UFO reporting your saying millions have had the exact same hallucination all over the world and had the same mental disorder in the exact same fashion? Highly unlikely. |
You're not really reading what I'm writing. You're creating a strawman argument. The Human Psychology Hypothesis (HPH) is simply the evidence we currently have for UFOs is well explained by:
1) hoaxes
2) misidentification
Surely 2 encompasses some cases of mental disorder. But it largely means the human brain is not a perfect neutral observer. Any lawyer can tell you how flawed human eye witnesses (even so called "trained observers") can be. The human brain interprets incoming stimulus based on pattern matching rules that furthered our survival. Pareidolia is but one example. Another good example is planes in the sky. A small prop plane always appears to be moving faster than a 747. Clearly the 747 is moving faster. But your brain, devoid of cues for size/distance save for the clue of how quickly the plane crosses its own length, interprets the speed incorrectly.
Lots of people are fooled by something called the "Venus halo effect".
http://www.clearskies.se/Venus%20halo%20&%20Earthshine.htm
You speak of science being used to study space aliens, but understand the scientific method has been constructed to over come such problems with human perception and a host of biases inherent in the human condition. Hence a collection of anecdotes is poor evidence. There's a maxim: the plural of anecdote is anecdotes not "data".
Observation is a good starting point. But science understands human bias. For example, you want to claim there's a dinosaur in the congo or a new species of fruit bat. People reporting sightings are a great reason to mount an expedition but you need to bring in the hard evidence (a body) to get it entered into the big book of things that really exist.
Biomedical research encounters this problem all the time. Doctors notice what they think is a causal effect. "Hmmm my patients with diets high in antioxidants seem to have lower rates of cancer." Seem. So science needs to control for all possible intermediate variables and determine if antioxidants are causing an effect.
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| But space tike distortion is very possible. |
Yes, but it's only distorted to significant degrees by massive wells of gravity. To create that mass you need vast amounts of energy. This is all nice speculation but you keep missing the central point: there's nothing on the table that blueprints how that's done. You're in the world of deep speculation. You can't logically use that to support the ET Hypothesis (ETH). It's a reverse slippery slope. If aliens, then some kind of FTL travel. If that, then there has to be some way around basic laws of the universe or we're missing some loophole. Maybe. But it sure does make for poor logical evidence. In science, every chain in your argument needs hard proof. If your theory is based on too much guess work, it's not exactly going to reach wide acceptance.
In sum, because we have two hypothesis on the table that explain all the observations (ETH and HPH) we need some clear cut evidence to decide between the two. That evidence is a hunk of metal or an alien body. That will end debate. Produce an alien body and I'm happy to eat all the crow you wish to serve me. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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The Phoenix Lights incident was pretty freakin nuts: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gg6cGCAB2Ck
Visits back in time from future human civilizations should be completely ruled out, since if we can witness such visits, I fail to see anything standing in the way of the possibility of going back in time and killing one's own younger grandfather, in which case the traveller both would and would not exist, would and would not make his journey, and would and would not kill his grandfather. Or there exist parallel universes - one where the grandfather killer does exist and make his journey and one where he doesn't exist and doesn't make his journey (the split occurs upon the death of the grandfather). Both scenarios are utterly barmy, therefore if backward time travel is possible (I doubt it), I think the laws of nature will dictate that time travellers be completely invisible, since they've no natural place in their present state in a previous time. I should've developed this point before instead of rambling on about Hitler and Terminator.
So, going back to incidents such as the 'Phoenix lights', witnessed by hundreds of people, we cannot disregard the incident as mistaken identity (Venus - 'Queen of UFOs', or weather balloon) and we must reject the possibility of observing travellers back in time, I make such incidents either (a) advanced present-day human technology or (b) visitors from other planets - neither of which are we in a position to investigate properly. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| So, going back to incidents such as the 'Phoenix lights', witnessed by hundreds of people, we cannot disregard the incident as mistaken identity (Venus - 'Queen of UFOs', or weather balloon) and we must reject the possibility of observing travellers back in time, I make such incidents either (a) advanced present-day human technology or (b) visitors from other planets - neither of which are we in a position to investigate properly. |
Military flares. |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| So, going back to incidents such as the 'Phoenix lights', witnessed by hundreds of people, we cannot disregard the incident as mistaken identity (Venus - 'Queen of UFOs', or weather balloon) and we must reject the possibility of observing travellers back in time, I make such incidents either (a) advanced present-day human technology or (b) visitors from other planets - neither of which are we in a position to investigate properly. |
Military flares. |
i dont buy the flares bs. Also even the military's own project blue book (another load of BS in my opinion based on some things) concluded though also that there were reports that they couldnt explain away with any explanation.+ |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
i dont buy the flares bs. |
Well, the military pilot who dropped the flares says they were his flares. Is he lying?
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| Also even the military's own project blue book (another load of BS in my opinion based on some things) concluded though also that there were reports that they couldnt explain away with any explanation.+ |
That's the fallacy of the argument from ignorance. Because you don't know the explanation for something doesn't mean your hypothesis is the valid one.
"Hmmm... we don't know how primitive life began on earth therefore god or a space alien created it."
Well, maybe there's a natural explanation yet discovered. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| twg wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| In this modern age the idea of space aliens shouldnt be so hard to swallow. |
Oh, a lot of people have swallowed it. They also swallowed Big Foot, pyramid power, ESP, ghosts, Uri Gellar, a righteous Iraq War, religion, free love, winning at three card monty, The Loch Ness monster, intelligent design,.... Do I have continue listing the things people believe to be true because they want it to be true? |
Ok but the lochhness monster etc is composed manily of stories.. |
So is ET. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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