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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| Why would that be considered singling Americans out? |
It may seem irrelevant and trivial to you. But there is a difference between criticizing Americans for failing to see the imperfections in their own country while pointing out others' problems, on the one hand, and criticizing people (Americans included) for generally failing to deal with their own imperfections while prefering to point out others' shortcomings and failings, on the other.
One is bitter axe-grinding and the other constructive discourse.
Which one are you interested in...? Is it your goal to persuade people and shame and/or antagonize them...? |
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Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Alyallen wrote: |
| Why would that be considered singling Americans out? |
It may seem irrelevant and trivial to you. But there is a difference between criticizing Americans for failing to see the imperfections in their own country while pointing out others' problems, on the one hand, and criticizing people (Americans included) for generally failing to deal with their own imperfections while prefering to point out others' shortcomings and failings, on the other.
One is bitter axe-grinding and the other constructive discourse.
Which one are you interested in...? Is it your goal to persuade people and shame and/or antagonize them...? |
I don't see it that way. Both are ways to avoid taking a hard look at things. Why pretty it up by saying "Oh...they prefer to turn a blind eye to this problem" ? That makes no sense to me. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think you probably contracted the muckrakers' virus some time ago. This means you will be (wittingly or not) letting most nonAmericans off the hook for their own shortcomings and failings while giving them plenty of ammunition to "criticize" America's shortcomings and failings -- "criticism" entailing hyperbole and harsh negativity, of course.
Best of luck, Alyallen. I am sure you will find many more such gems as this story in the muck to display for us here. And I look forward to seeing them. |
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Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
I think you probably contracted the muckrakers' virus some time ago. This means you will be (wittingly or not) letting most nonAmericans off the hook for their own shortcomings and failings while giving them plenty of ammunition to "criticize" America's shortcomings and failings.
Best of luck, Alyallen. I am sure you will find many more such gems as this in the muck to display for us here. And I look forward to seeing them. |
What are you talking about? The article was about Americans in America sending threatening letters to a fellow American because he's marrying a woman from another "race." Please tell me where Canada, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Spain and Mexico come into this dialogue.
Mentioning this issue in regards to Americans does not mean it doesn't happen abroad. It just means that it is happening in America. Is it so wrong to point out a problem? Does it have to be viewed as America bashing because I'm pointing out a "shortcoming." Is your ego so tired to your love of America that you can't see that what I'm pointing out is constructive criticism? The idea being that America shouldn't rest on its laurels now that segregation is over and whatnot...that there is more work to be done and that we can make America a better place for all Americans by moving forward in a quest for a more "perfect" country?
If that's the case, then this conversation will continue to go in circles leading itself no closer to a viable ending. I'm American. I do love my country and I think its sad that in this day and age people are still this "backwards." I'd say the exact same thing if this was happening in another country... |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| What are you talking about? The article was about... |
a few negative telephone calls and approximately thirty negative letters, some of them called "threatening" in the press, in Boise, Idaho. You have blown it out-of-proportion and even cited American foreign policy.
| Alyallen wrote: |
| I'd say the exact same thing if this was happening in another country... |
Glad to hear it. As I often criticize the critics, people who focus on American evils and Naziism or what-have-you, really ought to get out and see the world a bit more. What is your opinion on this story, by the way?
These women, as I am sure you can see, do not even get the chance to marry white, black, or any men at all...
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GENEVA, Switzerland (Reuters) -- Extreme sexual violence against women is pervasive in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and local authorities do little to stop it or prosecute those responsible, a U.N. investigator said on Monday.
Rape and brutality against women and girls are "rampant and committed by non-state armed groups, the Armed Forces of the DRC, the National Congolese Police, and increasingly also by civilians", said Turkish lawyer Yakin Erturk.
"Violence against women seems to be perceived by large sectors of society to be normal," she added in a report after an 11-day trip to the strife-torn country.
Erturk, special rapporteur for the United Nations Human Rights Council on violence against women, said the situation in South Kivu province, where rebels from neighboring Rwanda operate, was the worst she had ever encountered.
The atrocities perpetrated there by armed groups, some of whom seemed to have been involved in the 1994 Rwandan massacres in which 800,000 people were killed, "are of an unimaginable brutality that goes far beyond rape," she said.
"Women are gang-raped, often in front of their families and communities. In numerous cases, male relatives are forced at gun point to rape their own daughters, mothers or sisters," she said.
After rape, many women were shot or stabbed in the genital area, and survivors told Erturk that while held as slaves by the gangs they had been forced to eat excrement or the flesh of their murdered relatives... |
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:32 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| How would the reception be say in other Western countries... |
How many times are Canadians going to cite "In Canada" or "In other Western countries" when discussing American affairs?
Bad analogy, as always, Adventurer. Different contexts and historical trajectories entirely.
And let us not forget, going back to Bacon's Rebellion, that it was a colonial govt from one of your righteous "other Western countries" who set things in motion as far as basing slave-labor on racism in America -- or that it was a collection of your "other Western countries" who took indigenous, African slave-markets and transformed them into a global, capitalist phenomenon in the first place. |
If you argued that natives in Canada are often treated worse than they are in the United States I would say you have a point. If someone said African Americans are generally treated worse than in Canada, I would say they have a point. Many people when talking about Obama say a black man cannot be elected. In their mind, America is not ready for a black president. I don't think Canada is ready for a black prime minister or non-English, non-Irish, or non-French prime minister. There hasn't been a prime minister in Canada who wasn't of French or from the British Isles and Ireland except for John Diefenbaker whose father was of German background. I would be curious, though, how would things be if a prominent Englishman married a black woman. I did mention the German star who had a problem, but I don't know about England and how things would perceived. How was the Rolling Stone's musician who dated Naomi Campbell go over? I never heard a fuss, but I don't live in England.
It is sad that people receive threats based on their race when they are running for president. I have no clue how significant it is, but the prejudice is only mentioned when it comes from Caucasians.
Believe me, I have seen plenty of it coming from African Americans, too.
I did mention that a German tennis star had a hard time when he was married to a black woman. I think I was judicious in saying that
there is more of a problem of tolerating a marriage with a black person than with other races. I never heard of people freaking out over someone marrying say a Korean or Japanese man or woman, at least nothing that hit the news. I am sure it must happen. Anyone have any stories about that?
Anyway, 2007 is just 40 years from 1967 when so many schools were desegreated, it takes more than 40 years to really erase bigotry on both sides... |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| If you argued that natives in Canada... |
I do not make such arguments, Adventurer. Because America and Canada are not peers (start with "the Big Three" who dictated the Versailles Treaty; "the Big Three" who directed the Allied cause during the Second World War; or today's five "Permanent Members" to the Security Council who play such a pivotal role in shaping world affairs) or analogous (different colonial histories; different contexts re: Indians and blacks; different independence processes; different govts; and different population sizes and economies today -- and the list goes on).
What basis do you have for grouping these two nation-states together for comparative purposes so often? |
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Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| If you argued that natives in Canada... |
I do not make such arguments, Adventurer. Because America and Canada are not peers or analogous.
What basis do you have for grouping these two nation-states together for comparative purposes? |
Did you not just state earlier...
| Quote: |
Yes, this is true, in many cases.
It is also true, however, of many Latin Americans, Western Europeans, East Asians, and especially Canadians and other Commonwealthers I have met and known. |
You use other regions to justify this behavior as wide spread (which may be true) but notice that I didn't bring it up first and neither did Adventurer...
Adventurer...I was going to mention about how it could have been Blacks who did it but it wasn't the point. My criticism was towards Americans who reacted to an event like this in such a way.This sort of reaction is wrong regardless of race or gender. I would be equally pissed off if it was a White man and a Black woman, an Asian Woman with a Hispanic Man, an African man and an Eskimo woman....I thought that my view on this issue was crystal clear but I see it wasn't since I had to elaborate to such a degree.....
In any event, this whole thing has taken a very strange turn. If Gopher thinks that I'm an America hater for wanting to live in a country where crap like this doesn't happen, then so be it... |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I stated both of those things. So what? Are you really telling me you cannot tell the difference?
Who called you "an America hater," by the way?
I said
| Gopher wrote: |
| your expectations are unreasonable and, more to the point, unrealistic and unhelpful. |
That makes you just another internet purist in my book. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| If you argued that natives in Canada... |
I do not make such arguments, Adventurer. Because America and Canada are not peers (start with "the Big Three" who dictated the Versailles Treaty; "the Big Three" who directed the Allied cause during the Second World War; or today's five "Permanent Members" to the Security Council who play such a pivotal role in shaping world affairs) or analogous (different colonial histories; different contexts re: Indians and blacks; different independence processes; different govts; and different population sizes and economies today -- and the list goes on).
What basis do you have for grouping these two nation-states together for comparative purposes so often? |
You can still compare two countries if the people have a similar per capita income and technology... You did, in another thread, ask about how universities in Canada compare with American ones in a specific way.
All countries and people compare to some extent. I have used England as well. The US is compared to other industrialised, Western states.
It is a fact of life just like Korea is compared with industrialised countries when it comes to violence, treatment of women etc... |
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ChimpumCallao

Joined: 17 May 2005 Location: your mom
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Arguably, the biggest offense was made by that retarded tv reporter who completely RUINED the whole proposal.
"Duhhh...now you're gonna propose to your girlfriend so go ahead."
MORON! She didnt even know! He spoiled the whole damn thing!
Anywa. Whoever sent him those mean emails is a stupid buffon....but, is this guy even considered black? My grandma's blacker than he is.... Jeez, talk about the one drop rule.
Anyway, people are always going to have stupid backwards ideas and the undying desire to dictate other people's lives because it doesnt fit into what they deem proper. What can you do. I hope they have lots of nice little cheerleading running back babies...the video was very very sweet. |
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Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I can't say that I ever thought to get a "how to" guide on "How to Date a White Guy"
Personally, I don't see what's the big deal with dating someone outside their "race" so I suppose this article will be as informative for you as it's been to me...
More black women consider 'dating out'
By DIONNE WALKER, Associated Press Writer 21 minutes ago
RICHMOND, Va. - For years, Toinetta Jones played the dating game by her mom's strict rule.
"Mom always told me, 'Don't you ever bring a white man home,'" recalled Jones, echoing an edict issued by many Southern, black mothers.
But at 37, the Alexandria divorcee has shifted to dating "anyone who asks me out," regardless of race.
"I don't sit around dreaming about the perfect black man I'm going to marry," Jones said.
Black women around the country also are reconsidering deep-seated reservations toward interracial relationships, reservations rooted in America's history of slavery and segregation.
They're taking cues from their favorite stars � from actress Shar Jackson to tennis pro Venus Williams � as well as support blogs, how-to books and interracially themed novels telling them it's OK to "date out."
It comes as statistics suggest American black women are among the least likely to marry.
"I'm not saying that white men are the answer to all our problems," Jones said. "I'm just saying that they offer a different solution."
She reflects many black women frustrated as the field of marriageable black men narrows: They're nearly seven times more likely to be incarcerated than white men and more than twice as likely to be unemployed.
Census data showed 117,000 black wife-white husband couples in 2006, up from 95,000 in 2000.
There were just 26,000 such couples in 1960, before a Supreme Court ruling banished laws against mixed marriages.
Black female-white male romance has become a hot topic in black-geared magazines and on Web sites, even hitting the big screen in movies like last year's "Something New."
That film centers on an affluent black woman who falls for her white landscaper, a situation not unlikely as black women scale the corporate ladder, said Evia Moore, whose interracial marriage blog draws 1,000 visitors a day.
It features articles like "Could Mr. Right Be White?" and pictures of couples like white chef Wolfgang Puck and his new Ethiopian wife.
"Black women are refusing to comply with that message about just find yourself a good blue-collar man with a job, or just find a black man," Moore said.
She pointed to low rates of black men in college, a place where women of all races often meet their spouses.
Black women on campus largely are surrounded by non-black men: In 2004, 26.5 percent of black males ages 18 to 24 were enrolled in college versus 36.5 percent of black women that age, according to the American Council on Education's most recent statistics.
Even after college, Roslyn Holcomb struggled to meet professional black men.
"I wanted to get married (and) have children," she said. "If I was only meeting one guy a year, or every few years, that wasn't going to happen."
The Alabama author eventually married white.
"I think a lot of black women are realizing or feeling that the pickings are slim," she said.
They're made even slimmer, grumble many black women, by high rates of successful black men choosing blondes. For some, they argue, white wives are the ultimate status symbol.
"They don't want a dark chocolate sister laying around their swimming pool," Moore said.
Nearly three quarters of the 403,000 black-white couples in 2006 involved black husbands.
Meanwhile, psychological barriers have discouraged black women from crossing racial lines.
"Black women are socialized to stick by their men," explained Kellina Craig-Henderson, a Howard University psychology professor who studied 15 black women dating interracially.
She said modern black women agonize over breaking male-female bonds forged in slavery and strengthened through the Jim Crow era.
"It may be even more of an issue for educated black women who have a sense of the historical realities of this country, where black women often were abused at the hands of white men," Craig-Henderson said.
Jones remembered being troubled when a white man politely approached her around 1990. Her stance softened years later, after a sobering party experience.
"All the black men literally pushed (us) out the way to talk to the blondes," said Jones, who soon declared, "I'm going to date whoever."
Black men and women have openly feuded before.
At places like Atlanta's Spelman College, black women have rallied against black male rappers characterizing them as promiscuous.
But black men are voicing their own frustrations with women they feel regard them with suspicion. "They treat us all the same," said W. Randy Short, a Washington writer who dates across races. "The rapist on the TV is the same as me."
It's a frustration director Tim Alexander tackles in "Diary of a Tired Black Man," a frank film covering everything from black women's demeanors to their weight. Frustrated by black women, the main character dates a white one.
"To a certain degree, black people are sick of each other," Alexander said. "It would be better for black men and black women to open their options."
But Ayo Handy-Kendi, creator of Black Love Day, argues blacks are simply reacting to messages linking success with whiteness. She referred to a string of successful athletes with white partners, including golfer Tiger Woods.
"They normally rejected their culture and they went to the acceptable standard of success � a white woman," said Handy-Kendy, who thought it ironic high-achieving black women were mimicking the behavior.
Back in Virginia, Jones feels life is too short to ponder race when it comes to love.
As for mom, Jones figures, "she really admires the fact that I did something she may have really wanted to do, and never did."
___
On the Net:
Black Female Interracial Marriage E-Zine: http://bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/
Date a White Guy blog: http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/
Black women's IR guide book: http://www.dateawhiteguybook.com/
Diary of a Tired Black Man film site: http://www.tiredblackman.com/
http://tinyurl.com/2nlgpf |
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dogshed

Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| just another day wrote: |
what makes it even weirder is that african americans had to take the same surnames of their slave owners. so technically, they are in the same family.
the entire thing is strange. |
They didn't always take the names of their owners. |
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