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charlieDD
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: Seoul, Korea
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 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: If the hostages were Japanese |
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Do you think the Japanese government would be asking the world powers to forgo their policy of not negotiating with the Taliban for hostages? Or, do you think they would accept the reality and keep a stiff upper lip, while doing all they could to get their people freed?
The Korean gov't is doing the former. It just made me wonder the above.
I remember when the Japanese had high level people being held in Peru, I believe at their embassy complex, by the group Tupac Amaru. They refused to give in and refused to pressure the Peruvian gov't to meet the demands of the gunmen, even when Peru said they would be willing to do so (This was when the president of Peru was a Japanese-Peruvian).
(Could be a mute point, I suppose, because when you think about it, the Japanese wouldn't likely find themselves in the situation the Koreans do because they wouldn't have done the stupid thing the Korean missionaries did.) |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate, especially in business matters. They are famous for this. In Japanese culture, making concessions shows weakness, which is something to avoid at all costs. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Re: If the hostages were Japanese |
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| charlieDD wrote: |
Do you think the Japanese government would be asking the world powers to forgo their policy of not negotiating with the Taliban for hostages? Or, do you think they would accept the reality and keep a stiff upper lip, while doing all they could to get their people freed?
The Korean gov't is doing the former. It just made me wonder the above.
I remember when the Japanese had high level people being held in Peru, I believe at their embassy complex, by the group Tupac Amaru. They refused to give in and refused to pressure the Peruvian gov't to meet the demands of the gunmen, even when Peru said they would be willing to do so (This was when the president of Peru was a Japanese-Peruvian).
(Could be a mute point, I suppose, because when you think about it, the Japanese wouldn't likely find themselves in the situation the Koreans do because they wouldn't have done the stupid thing the Korean missionaries did.) |
The Japanese people, as far as I can recall, when two Japanese people were captured in Iraq they got a very bad reception when they returned for causing their country problems. The Korean people are not having the same attitude. They don't feel insulted by this behaviour perhaps because of the Christian sensibilities, so to speak. Some Koreans, though, think what was done was foolish and a headache for the government. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate |
How then do they negotiate without making concessions? Do they just state at the outset that Japan's position in inviolable, and everyone else has to accept it 100%? |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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No, it is not a moot, mute, moo ...point.
In fact..................
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| Seoul pleads for international support |
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| In a desperate attempt to prevent the further killing of South Korean hostages in Afghanistan, the South Korean government yesterday pleaded for the international community's support in showing flexibility in negotiations with the Taliban kidnappers. |
Is anyone surprised here? South Korea, once again begging for help with the international community (yet, after it is all finished, they will go back to their anti-foreigner attitude). There is a reason why certain countries do not negotiate with terrorists. If you give in now, you will give in later.
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| "We are fully aware of the principle position of the international community in terms of solving the kidnap issue. It is, however, also highly valuable in terms of a humanitarian perspective to add flexibility to this principle position in order to save the precious lives of the civilians," Cheong Wa Dae said in a statement announced by spokesman Cheon Ho-seon in a press briefing televised live nationwide. |
A HUMANITARIAN ISSUE? LOL! Not hardly. A humanitarian issue is when a natural disaster happens, and people are in trouble. People are in trouble, but not from an earthquake, fire or flood. This an extension of WAR. Prisoner exchange is not a humanitarian issue, folks.
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The statement followed the government's confirmation yesterday of a second killing by the Taliban of one of the South Koreans who have been held captive since July 19.
The kidnappers are currently demanding a swap of the remaining 21 South Korean hostages for jailed Taliban fighters, Cheon explained. "But this is something that the South Korean government has no control over. There is a limit to how much we can influence the decision of the Afghan government," he said. |
Hmmm...well, if you come off as a pushover, then I agree. Do what the Russians would do (and have done). For every Korean that is killed, whipe out one village....simple.
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The Taliban later in the day released a list of eight prisoners, including local commander-level guerilla fighters, that it demands be freed from prisons in an initial exchange with eight of their Korean captives.
The Afghan government, which has sworn never to exchange Taliban prisoners with foreign hostages again since March, has so far refused to consider the demands.
Yonhap News quoted an Afghan presidential spokesman yesterday as saying that there will be no tit-for-tat deal with the Taliban. |
Good. DON'T MAKE DEAL THAT PUTS YOU IN A POSITION OF COMPROMISE....THAT ACTION WILL BE A BITE IN THE ASS IN THE FUTURE, KOREA.
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| The United States, the influential backer of the Afghan government and harsh critic of prisoner-swaps, is keeping its distance from negotiations. |
Well, is Korea NOT capable of protecting itself, and handling these kinds of issues? Korea wants to bad mouth the U.S., but expects the U.S. to come calling to its aid? Personally, I think we should....
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At daybreak, the police found the second victim's body in the village of Arizo Kalley in Andar District, about 10 kilometers west of Ghazni city.
"We have confirmed that one of the South Korean civilians Shim Sung-min was killed by the militants on July 31," Foreign Ministry spokesman Cho Hee-yong said in the nationally televised press briefing.
The government warned, "If another action that harms the life of our people occurs again, we will not be sitting by without doing anything. There will be consequences." |
Yeah, I'm sure Korea has them shivering in their wee little boots. But, if they are going to take that stance, I hope they are ready to back it up. I would definitely support it.
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As the insurgents' threat to continue executing the remaining 21 hostages one by one loomed large, news reports said yet another deadline, of 4:30 p.m., Wednesday, Korean time, has been set by the Taliban.
Doubts spread over the efficacy of the current negotiating channel via the Afghan government as there were no reports of the negotiations making any progress. |
Two words, Korea.................Special Forces. You've got 'em...use 'em.
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Upon orders from President Roh Moo-hyun, special envoy Baek Jong-chun extended his stay in Kabul in order to hold another round of discussions with Afghan President Hamid Karzai.
President Karzai, who was harshly criticized by the U.S. and European leaders for freeing five prisoners to save an Italian journalist earlier this year, is also set to hold summit talks with U.S. President George W. Bush this weekend. |
War is hell...not that I know from personal experience, but that is the reality.
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| The United States, in the meantime, remained cautious about getting directly involved in the crisis. |
Well, considering how I have lived in Korea and have seen the true face of the Koran society as a whole, I would be cautious as well. But, on the other hand, I do feel the U.S. SHOULD intervene, and help our ally. But, as the old saying goes..........in regards to the U.S....."Dammed if we do, and dammed if we don't".
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| "Our main point that we have stressed is to simply show our support for the government of South Korea and the government of Afghanistan and their efforts to resolve this issue," said Tom Casey, deputy spokesman for the U.S. State Department. |
OK...ok.........so, seeing as how Korea wants to be a "big boy" in the world, then they should step up and PROVE they are capable of handling these things.
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The abduction has raised alarm around the world over the increasing violence of the Taliban, who were removed from government by U.S.-led forces in 2001 as part of its war on terror.
The Taliban announced late Monday night that they had killed one of the male hostages because the Afghan government was ignoring their demands.
"The Kabul and Korean governments are lying and cheating. They did not meet their promise of releasing Taliban prisoners," Ahmadi said . |
Koreans lying and cheating?!? There's a newsflash for you.
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| "The Taliban warns the government if the Afghan government won't release Taliban prisoners, then at any time the Taliban could kill another Korean hostage." |
They probably will.
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When the body was found on the side of the road, the victim, Shim Sung-min, was wearing white trousers and flip-flops, according to an Associated Press reporter at the scene.
Police lifted the body from the side of the road, and put it on a blanket and into the back of a waiting police truck, the report said. The victim's face was covered in blood, as was the ground beneath him, AP reported.
As concerns over the health of the hostages escalated, Arab-based Al Jazeera showed early Tuesday morning a video clip of several South Korean hostages.
About seven female hostages were seen sitting on the ground and standing, their heads covered with veils, in accordance with the Taliban's Islamic beliefs.
The hand-held camera spent several minutes zooming in on the face of each woman, who sat there without speaking and stared at the ground.
The Qatar-based television station said the video was obtained outside Afghanistan, Reuters reported.
Twenty-three South Korean volunteer workers from a church were taken hostage while riding on a bus from Kabul to Kandahar through Ghazni province.
Reports suggested they have been separated into groups and are moved periodically.
After giving a series of deadlines, the Taliban killed the leader of the aid workers, pastor Bae Hyung-kyu, 42, on Wednesday last week. His body arrived in Korea on Monday. |
Seriously, my heart goes out to these people, their families and Korea. As with many who have lived in Korea, it can be seen as a love/hate relationship. NO...those people had no business being there. That was like going into a hornets nest, and not expecting to be stung.
Yes, the Korean government should prove that it is capable of handling this, instead of once again pleading for international support...which will be forgotten down the line. Half of me wants to see Korea handle this on its own, but the other half of thinks that the U.S. SHOULD get in there and help our ally.
Sad days, folks. This is not a U.S. lead war.........this is going to be everyone's war. Whether you chose to burry your head in the sand or not, that is your choice. But, more dark times are coming. The world should be standing side by side against this crap.......because if we don't...make no mistake....it will be used against us.
dmbfan |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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| In a desperate attempt to prevent the further killing of South Korean hostages in Afghanistan, the South Korean government yesterday pleaded for the international community's support in showing flexibility in negotiations with the Taliban kidnappers. |
Is anyone surprised here? South Korea, once again begging for help with the international community (yet, after it is all finished, they will go back to their anti-foreigner attitude). There is a reason why certain countries do not negotiate with terrorists. If you give in now, you will give in later.
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You've got that right! Koreans should be ashamed of themselves... demanding that Taliban terrorists be released from prison to save Koreans who knew the risks and acted stupidly by ignoring all the obvious warnings. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| You've got that right! Koreans should be ashamed of themselves... |
NO, I have to disagree with you on that one. 22 Koreans out of 50 million went to that place. You cannot hold the entire country accountable on this account.
However, Koreans not having any sympathy or concern for their own countrymen and women ..........and saying that they "deserve to die"! That is awful..............THAT is something to be ashamed of!
Now, if Korea does not get it together and do something other than thalk , please, and beg for help...............then that is something to be ashame dof as well.
dmbfan |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate |
How then do they negotiate without making concessions? Do they just state at the outset that Japan's position in inviolable, and everyone else has to accept it 100%? |
In the past, how have they handled similar kidnappings? How have the Japanese addressed the issue of their citizens being abducted by North Korea? They cut their losses and get on with their lives as usual. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| In the past, how have they handled similar kidnappings? How have the Japanese addressed the issue of their citizens being abducted by North Korea? They cut their losses and get on with their lives as usual. |
Which is why they will be a target again.......................
Why do you think that very few will mess with the Russians, in a situation like this? Why do you think that very few would mess with Isreal (Munich, anyone?) in a situation like this?
I still stand by what I said.............................Korea says.....
"Ok, for every Korean that is killed, we will whipe out one of your villages".
dmbfan |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate |
How then do they negotiate without making concessions? Do they just state at the outset that Japan's position in inviolable, and everyone else has to accept it 100%? |
In the past, how have they handled similar kidnappings? How have the Japanese addressed the issue of their citizens being abducted by North Korea? They cut their losses and get on with their lives as usual. |
But you said that they carries this bargaining tactic over into "business matters", which I took to mean things like trade etc. Were you only referring to hostages and kidnappings? |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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| You've got that right! Koreans should be ashamed of themselves... |
NO, I have to disagree with you on that one. 22 Koreans out of 50 million went to that place. You cannot hold the entire country accountable on this account. |
You missed the rest of the sentence and what I said about Koreans demanding that Taliban terrorists be released from prison in order to save these idiot hostages. Knowing what I know about the Taliban and their attitudes towards crusaders, those hostages are doomed anyway. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate |
How then do they negotiate without making concessions? Do they just state at the outset that Japan's position in inviolable, and everyone else has to accept it 100%? |
In the past, how have they handled similar kidnappings? How have the Japanese addressed the issue of their citizens being abducted by North Korea? They cut their losses and get on with their lives as usual. |
But you said that they carries this bargaining tactic over into "business matters", which I took to mean things like trade etc. Were you only referring to hostages and kidnappings? |
You are taking things out of context here. Japanese do not bargain or make concessions. Try and bargain with Japanese in Japan, if you would be so bold. See what happens. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate |
How then do they negotiate without making concessions? Do they just state at the outset that Japan's position in inviolable, and everyone else has to accept it 100%? |
In the past, how have they handled similar kidnappings? How have the Japanese addressed the issue of their citizens being abducted by North Korea? They cut their losses and get on with their lives as usual. |
But you said that they carries this bargaining tactic over into "business matters", which I took to mean things like trade etc. Were you only referring to hostages and kidnappings? |
You are taking things out of context here. Japanese do not bargain or make concessions. Try and bargain with Japanese in Japan, if you would be so bold. See what happens. |
So, when Japan walks into international trade meetings, they get every single thing they want? I know that sounds like a bizzare question, but it would seem to follow from what you're saying here. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I find it hard to believe that 23 educated, affluent Japanese would ever go off and do something that stupid, but if they did, I think they'd be a lot more stoic about it.
The fact that these people and their families make such reluctant martyrs just goes to show how ignorant they were of the situation and that they were out for a missionary tour-vacation, not prepared to do whatever it takes to help people in a genuine aid mission. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Japanese do not make concessions when they negotiate |
How then do they negotiate without making concessions? Do they just state at the outset that Japan's position in inviolable, and everyone else has to accept it 100%? |
In the past, how have they handled similar kidnappings? How have the Japanese addressed the issue of their citizens being abducted by North Korea? They cut their losses and get on with their lives as usual. |
But you said that they carries this bargaining tactic over into "business matters", which I took to mean things like trade etc. Were you only referring to hostages and kidnappings? |
You are taking things out of context here. Japanese do not bargain or make concessions. Try and bargain with Japanese in Japan, if you would be so bold. See what happens. |
So, when Japan walks into international trade meetings, they get every single thing they want? I know that sounds like a bizzare question, but it would seem to follow from what you're saying here. |
Scroll up and you'll see how it stands to reason that the Japanese would never entertain thoughts of negotiation if knew they could not win in the first place. I said the Japanese would cut their losses and get on with their daily lives. This has traditionally been the case. |
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