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postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims? |
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God-Fearing People
Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, July 30, 2007, at 12:33 PM ET
During the greater part of last week, Slate's sister site On Faith (it is jointly produced by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, both owned by the Washington Post Co., which also owns Slate) gave itself over to a discussion about the religion of Islam. As usual in such cases, the search for "moderate" versions of this faith was under way before the true argument had even begun. If I were a Muslim myself, I think that this search would be the most "offensive" part of the business. Why must I prove that my deepest belief is compatible with moderation?
Unless I am wrong, a sincere Muslim need only affirm that there is one god, and only one, and that the Prophet Mohammed was his messenger, bringing thereby the final words of God to humanity. Certain practices are supposed to follow this affirmation, including a commitment to pray five times a day, a promise to pay a visit to Mecca if such a trip should be possible, fasting during Ramadan, and a pious vow to give alms to the needy. The existence of djinns, or devils, is hard to disavow because it was affirmed by the prophet. An obligation of jihad is sometimes mentioned, and some quite intelligent people argue about whether "holy war" is meant to mean a personal struggle or a political one. No real Islamic authority exists to decide this question, and those for whom the personal is highly political have recently become rather notorious.
Thus, Islamic belief, however simply or modestly it may be stated, is an extreme position to begin with. No human being can possibly claim to know that there is a God at all, or that there are, or were, any other gods to be repudiated. And when these ontological claims have collided, as they must, with their logical limits, it is even further beyond the cognitive capacity of any person to claim without embarrassment that the lord of creation spoke his ultimate words to an unlettered merchant in seventh-century Arabia. Those who utter such fantastic braggings, however many times a day they do so, can by definition have no idea what they are talking about. (I hasten to add that those who boast of knowing about Moses parting the Red Sea, or about a virgin with a huge tummy, are in exactly the same position.) Finally, it turns out to be impossible to determine whether jihad means more alms-giving or yet more zealous massacre of, say, Shiite Muslims.
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Why, then, should we be commanded to "respect" those who insist that they alone know something that is both unknowable and unfalsifiable? Something, furthermore, that can turn in an instant into a license for murder and rape? As one who has occasionally challenged Islamic propaganda in public and been told that I have thereby "insulted 1.5 billion Muslims," I can say what I suspect�which is that there is an unmistakable note of menace behind that claim. No, I do not think for a moment that Mohammed took a "night journey" to Jerusalem on a winged horse. And I do not care if 10 billion people intone the contrary. Nor should I have to. But the plain fact is that the believable threat of violence undergirds the Muslim demand for "respect."
Before me is a recent report that a student at Pace University in New York City has been arrested for a hate crime in consequence of an alleged dumping of the Quran. Nothing repels me more than the burning or desecration of books, and if, for example, this was a volume from a public or university library, I would hope that its mistreatment would constitute a misdemeanor at the very least. But if I choose to spit on a copy of the writings of Ayn Rand or Karl Marx or James Joyce, that is entirely my business. When I check into a hotel room and send my free and unsolicited copy of the Gideon Bible or the Book of Mormon spinning out of the window, I infringe no law, except perhaps the one concerning litter. Why do we not make this distinction in the case of the Quran? We do so simply out of fear, and because the fanatical believers in that particular holy book have proved time and again that they mean business when it comes to intimidation. Surely that should be to their discredit rather than their credit. Should not the "moderate" imams of On Faith have been asked in direct terms whether they are, or are not, negotiating with a gun on the table?
The Pace University incident becomes even more ludicrous and sinister when it is recalled that Islamists are the current leaders in the global book-burning competition. After the rumor of a Quran down the toilet in Guantanamo was irresponsibly spread, a mob in Afghanistan burned down an ancient library that (as President Hamid Karzai pointed out dryly) contained several ancient copies of the same book. Not content with igniting copies of The Satanic Verses, Islamist lynch parties demanded the burning of its author as well. Many distinguished authors, Muslim and non-Muslim, are dead or in hiding because of the words they have put on pages concerning the unbelievable claims of Islam. And it is to appease such a spirit of persecution and intolerance that a student in New York City has been arrested for an expression, however vulgar, of an opinion.
This has to stop, and it has to stop right now. There can be no concession to sharia in the United States. When will we see someone detained, or even cautioned, for advocating the burning of books in the name of God? If the police are honestly interested in this sort of "hate crime," I can help them identify those who spent much of last year uttering physical threats against the republication in this country of some Danish cartoons. In default of impartial prosecution, we have to insist that Muslims take their chance of being upset, just as we who do not subscribe to their arrogant certainties are revolted every day by the hideous behavior of the parties of God.
It is often said that resistance to jihadism only increases the recruitment to it. For all I know, this commonplace observation could be true. But, if so, it must cut both ways. How about reminding the Islamists that, by their mad policy in Kashmir and elsewhere, they have made deadly enemies of a billion Indian Hindus? Is there no danger that the massacre of Iraqi and Lebanese Christians, or the threatened murder of all Jews, will cause an equal and opposite response? Most important of all, what will be said and done by those of us who take no side in filthy religious wars? The enemies of intolerance cannot be tolerant, or neutral, without inviting their own suicide. And the advocates and apologists of bigotry and censorship and suicide-assassination cannot be permitted to take shelter any longer under the umbrella of a pluralism that they openly seek to destroy.
http://www.slate.com/id/2171371/fr/flyout
remember Islam by it's own definition doesn't mean peace it means submission. |
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dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Good posting...........I'm going to have read it again.
How did you come across it? |
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postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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man I'm a Hitchens fan!! I don't agree with everything he says but he's all about not listening to crazy 'god' talk and that's all right by me. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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postfundie wrote: |
man I'm a Hitchens fan!! I don't agree with everything he says but he's all about not listening to crazy 'god' talk and that's all right by me. |
No, he's not simply a person who doesn't suscribe to god talk which is crazy, he's a man who doesn't suscribe to the legitimacy of the very idea of a god. He's an atheist anti-religious polemicist.
These people ignore complex philosophical defenses for the legitimacy of the possibility of the existence of God, such as Kant's 4th antinomy, which deals with the existence of a necessary being and how it cannot be proven one way or the other whether such a being exists. Meanwhile, these people grab hold of adolescent analogies, such as comparing God to an imaginary friend, which only seems to demonstrate to me that these fools have no ability to confront the ambiguities and challenges of philosophy let alone theology.
Hitchen's attacks on his own shadow manifestations of what he poorly understands religion to be is an exercise a descent into ignorance that we all should avoid. If you want a more adult critique of Islam, go to Spengler. |
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dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
No, he's not simply a person who doesn't suscribe to god talk which is crazy, he's a man who doesn't suscribe to the legitimacy of the very idea of a god. He's an atheist anti-religious polemicist.
These people ignore complex philosophical defenses for the legitimacy of the possibility of the existence of God, such as Kant's 4th antinomy, which deals with the existence of a necessary being and how it cannot be proven one way or the other whether such a being exists. Meanwhile, these people grab hold of adolescent analogies, such as comparing God to an imaginary friend, which only seems to demonstrate to me that these fools have no ability to confront the ambiguities and challenges of philosophy let alone theology.
Hitchen's attacks on his own shadow manifestations of what he poorly understands religion to be is an exercise a descent into ignorance that we all should avoid. If you want a more adult critique of Islam, go to Spengler. |
..which is why it was an interesting post. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
Hitchen's attacks on his own shadow manifestations of what he poorly understands religion to be is an exercise a descent into ignorance that we all should avoid... |
Sizes the man and his rants up nicely. You should see his deep thoughts on foreign policy. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Religion is any other idea. When proponents of a religion want their beliefs adopted by others or enshrined in law, it should be open to the full force of public debate. Whether the idea is christianity or islam, it should not be immune from criticism, mockery, parody, satire. Ideas don't come with an a priori right to respect. Because your idea has an invisible friend attached to it doesn't confer such an a priori right.
If you say you believe in X invisible friend, I won't mock you. If you say we should all believe in your invisible friend and laws should conform to what your invisible friend whispers to you, then I will mock you.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! I agree with Kuros and Gopher, 200%.
Well said Kuros and exactly sums up his "ignorance". Amazing how his career chart has taken a real "pathological" and extremist curve.
DD |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
postfundie wrote: |
man I'm a Hitchens fan!! I don't agree with everything he says but he's all about not listening to crazy 'god' talk and that's all right by me. |
No, he's not simply a person who doesn't suscribe to god talk which is crazy, he's a man who doesn't suscribe to the legitimacy of the very idea of a god. He's an atheist anti-religious polemicist.
These people ignore complex philosophical defenses for the legitimacy of the possibility of the existence of God, such as Kant's 4th antinomy, which deals with the existence of a necessary being and how it cannot be proven one way or the other whether such a being exists. Meanwhile, these people grab hold of adolescent analogies, such as comparing God to an imaginary friend, which only seems to demonstrate to me that these fools have no ability to confront the ambiguities and challenges of philosophy let alone theology. |
He subscribes to the simple idea if you claim there exists X then prove there is X with evidence. What evidence do you have Hitchens ignores "complex philosophical defenses for the legitimacy of the possibility of the existence of God"? Maybe he's read it and simply doesn't agree? I don't. I've not ignored such arguments. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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mindmetoo wrote: |
Religion is any other idea. When proponents of a religion want their beliefs adopted by others or enshrined in law, it should be open to the full force of public debate. |
I agree. Many advocates of one organized religion or another simply do not get this.
But do you not think we ought to marginalize if not outright ignore the simpletons aiming merely to discredit Islam for political and propagandistic motives -- in this case, Hitchens -- and focus on serious debate? I may have cited the man here just to rub leftists' nose in some of the things he has said post9/11. But I never really assigned him any more credibility than I would Geraldo Rivera or any other sensationalist journalist.
We can find better sources for such a debate as you propose, I think. CNN or MSNBC, not so long ago, sponsored "a discussion" between Hitchens an Al Sharpton on this issue. A lot of people in that audience put their hands on their chins and you could see them listening and thinking "hmmm" as these two went at it. Come on, man. Is this a joke? These are serious questions that brilliant and wise people (Kuros cites Kant and Spengler. But there must be many more) have considered and debated for centuries. Why not get into one or more of those discussions...? |
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