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tfunk
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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You don't have to become stronger by suffering. That's an Anglo-Saxon myth, probably perpetuated by those in power(the church, the ruling power) to keep the people psychologically bound to their condition (the meek shall inherit the earth etc.).
It's also a romantic image suffering people have of themselves. I think some Buddhists differentiate between suffering and pain. Suffering in this context means the narrative that you carry around with you about how things should be. When you live in opposition to the way things are then suffering is a result. Physical pain is inevitable and I really admire people who have dedicated their lives to medicine. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| tfunk wrote: |
| You don't have to become stronger by suffering. |
Yeah, it's true. What I said about going through the same dreck over and over. It's a problem you can't solve until you solve it. Then ... well, you get some new problems, maybe a little more complicated. But also more interesting.
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| I think some Buddhists differentiate between suffering and pain. Suffering in this context means the narrative that you carry around with you about how things should be. |
I agree with this, but you know? Pain is not a bad thing - it's a friend, not an enemy. It's telling us something is wrong and we need to fix it. Sure, we often don't have a clue how to go about it, but when you think about it, just that little red light going on - what a gift. You know, like the light on the dashboard telling you you need to change your oil ... sucha simple messege, but we usually are not happy to hear it
That's not to say I go out LOOKING for pain, of course - at least, I don't think so. Damn ... hard to tell the REAL reasons for a lot of the things we do, comes down to it.
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| When you live in opposition to the way things are then suffering is a result. |
Fully agree. True realism is a hard pill to swallow, but it cures many ills. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| When you suffer it makes you realise life is hard, and generally makes you less judgemental and more empathetic towards others. |
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tfunk
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| wrote: |
| Pain is not a bad thing - it's a friend, not an enemy. It's telling us something is wrong and we need to fix it. Sure, we often don't have a clue how to go about it, but when you think about it, just that little red light going on - what a gift. You know, like the light on the dashboard telling you you need to change your oil ... sucha simple messege, but we usually are not happy to hear it |
The analogy of pain as a 'little red light' is an abstraction removed from the qualatative experience of pain and is an example of how even Buddhists are keen to import symbols and ideas about reality rather than live in the present moment. I don't think anybody that is really experiencing pain would say that it is a gift. They might rationalise about it but the experience itself is not friendly. Pain is not like a light on the dashboard; it's like a rapist that sits on your head. Pain is not there to serve our individual interests, it is there to perserve life in its wider context.
I don't like pain, anyway you talk about it.
| Satori wrote: |
| When you suffer it makes you realise life is hard, and generally makes you less judgemental and more empathetic towards others. |
I don't think this is supportable by evidence. I'd even argue for the opposite; when something 'bad' happens a person they have a tendency to pass on their affliction to other people. Next time it's rainy and gloomy outside or you're sick then see how you react to the students you teach. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| tfunk wrote: |
| wrote: |
| Pain is not a bad thing - it's a friend, not an enemy. It's telling us something is wrong and we need to fix it. Sure, we often don't have a clue how to go about it, but when you think about it, just that little red light going on - what a gift. You know, like the light on the dashboard telling you you need to change your oil ... sucha simple messege, but we usually are not happy to hear it |
The analogy of pain as a 'little red light' is an abstraction removed from the qualatative experience of pain and is an example of how even Buddhists are keen to import symbols and ideas about reality rather than live in the present moment. I don't think anybody that is really experiencing pain would say that it is a gift. |
It's in the nature of pain that it's not something any of us likes. And if we learn anything from it, it's not while the pain is happening. It's after we've found the strength inside of us that we can endure it and survive and learn what we needed to ... or not.
Yeah, sometimes the pain kills. That's not the wisdom of the universe, and it's not lack of strength or courage of the person feeling the pain. Sometimes that's just the shit that happens in the world. Not everything that happens has a reason. Sometimes faeces just occur.
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| I don't like pain, anyway you talk about it. |
Same here. But like a lot of us, I'm my own worst enemy. It's the old joke about the guy who who keeps hitting himself on the head with a hammer. When asked why he would do that, he replied (you know the punchline, a VERY old joke) : "It feels so good when I stop."
Look at it carefully - VERY carefully. How MUCH of your pain comes from some place outside of yourself? Remember, I said to look VERY carefully.
Yeah, I agree, a lot of pain in the world seems to have no purpose. Might just mean I'm not seeing the big picture. And maybe I never will. In my own life, accepting that there are things I will never know has always been the very hardest thing. I might even get the hang of it one of these days. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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The "pain is good for you" philosophy seems to reflect a choice rather than a fact. It takes patience - not mere sentiment - to make this philosophy work. Anyone who still commits acts of road rage, kicks up a stink in the restaraunt when the rice is in the wrong place, or laughs at someone else's misfortune and says "Better her than me!" or "What a wimp! You know nothing about suffering!" isn't learning this lesson at all.
Suffering has the potential to be a learning experience ... but does not always work.
In fact, I believe that this philosophy - even if it is 80% true - has been seriously undermined in recent years by the very people who are supposed to be preaching it.
Whenever there is a serious crime, or an act of terrorism, what do some people say? "Well, spare a thought for the poor rapist/murderer/suicide bomber. Imagine how much he has suffered at the hands of abusive parents / the capitalist system / American foreign policy."
Essentially, they are saying that the suffering of these individuals is causing them to inflict suffering on others. They are not merely implying it, they are stating it as scientific fact, and labelling you a monster for not agreeing. In other words, their philosophy is that suffering is an infectious disease.
I could not think of a better argument against the "suffering is good for you" philosophy. If they are right, then this proves that suffering is unnecessary, regardless of its benefits. |
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merlot
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Location: I tried to contain myself but I escaped.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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If there is nothing to overcome in life you cannot advance to the next plateau on the climb to Truth. .
Pain and suffering is the fuel for understanding, enlightenment, cosmic consciousness, oneness with the Universe...whatever you want to call it, and finally merging with All Of It by shedding the ego and just being.
This is when eternal life becomes crystal clear�flashes and inspirations at first, but it all makes sense (for some) eventually and it�s a wondrous thing.
Life transforms into an interesting vacation when the cosmic perspective is approached.
Bu the work involved to do this...oh my. |
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Doogie
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Location: Hwaseong City
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| When you suffer it makes you realise life is hard, and generally makes you less judgemental and more empathetic towards others. |
Too true. This attitiude of empathy through suffering, arguably, created America's greatest President...FDR. If you ever get a chance, read his biography. He was a total stuck up SOB when he was a young man. He only cared about his own ambition and didn't give a hoot about anyone else. Then, around the age of 40, he was stricken with polio that left him paralyzed for the remainder of his life. He became a different man as a result. He became the man that brought in the New Deal during the Great Depression. Also, check out the life of Wilma Rudolph. She was another polio victim, but she had it as a child. All of her doctors told her she would never walk again.She went on to become the greatest female runner of all time (3 olympic gold medals). She always said that her suffering gave her an iron will that would never allow her to give up. As you can tell, I'm a biography nut. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
or laughs at someone else's misfortune and says .... "What a wimp! You know nothing about suffering!" isn't learning this lesson at all.
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A lot of people are snobs about their past. They brag about hard times, or think they've had it tough, feeling a type of pride. It's like that monty python sketch with 4 wealthy gents outdoing each other with impossible stories about how rough their past was. Do we`cherish these memories of hardship even when we can still feel sad from them? I think we do. Sometimes we want to block out bad things, not talk about really bad stuff, but the past is not really past for anyone. It's carried around like trophies in a box. Where's your identity or sense of self without it?
Problems also give us a purpose. They help give meaning, some reason to keep trying to better yourself and your life. Strange how elusive the prize is, as struggling just becomes routine.
Oh, watched that movie, "The Pursuit of Happyness." That was pretty good. |
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wo buxihuan hanguoren
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Location: Suyuskis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jajdude wrote: |
Oh, watched that movie, "The Pursuit of Happyness." That was pretty good. |
You can watch movies?
Luxury! |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Nietzsche saw the value of struggle and suffering in a world where even God was dead. But you have to get over yourself. Overcoming and becoming, having the will to create something greater than oneself, the courage to climb peaks and traverse the abyss, to act now for the future without any regrets, accepting everything as being for the best, saying yes to all that life brings in the process... that is the lesson of the overman, as he has Zarathustra put it. Don't be a wanderer like the shadow that follows one. When you've climbed a mountain, climb a new one! |
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