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World owes US a debt, says Brown
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yushin



Joined: 14 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm "debt" well I'll just say that I think most of the "world' owes the USA "jack s**t" except they have given us (the world) a collective headache over the last 100 or so years...but as an Englishman I do feel indebted to the Kiwis and Aussies and others from the Commonwealth who sacrificied their lives for us...
PS The Russians really went to bat though...check out the body counts in WWII...
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The Perfect Cup of Coffee



Joined: 17 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just Brown kissin' ass as he steadies his new administration. As for "owing debts" to countries, we could play this came for the next thousand years.

Yeah, we "owe" the Yanks, like they "owe" the French for saving their asses during the Revolutionary War. And anytime a Yank opens his mouth and speaks English, they "owe" an English citizen who "owes" a Norman or a Saxon, who in turn "owes" a Roman who "owes" a Greek, blah, blah, blah.

The only people who "owe" the Yanks anything right now are the Karzai administration in Kabul and the latest Iraqi government for keeping them in power. Historical debts are just ways politicians can blow kisses at each other without getting their lips all wet and sloppy. If I were English, I'd be ashamed at the level of pandering Blair / Brown have done. Pathetic! Grow a pair!
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fill in the blank:

Blair is to poodle as Brown is to ________.


For the darkhorse:

Two names: Coral Sea and Midway.
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Dome Vans
Guest




PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in support of dark horse here.

This has turned into another american/rest of the world stand off. Obviously the ROW can't be that wrong, maybe it's just the americans feel as though they have to be 'thanked' for accelerating WW3.

America joined at the end of WW2 when they thought they could be heros (the real heros were the russians.) You don't see them expecting thanks. They took the body count but don't hang round waiting for the praise.

Then America makes films like U571, the one that suggests that America got the enigma machine and won the war, this along with Pearl Harbour amazes me that you can rewrite historical events when there is actual fact to say otherwise.

'the victors write the history books'

The ROW don't owe america anything, Brown is a puppet who has hopefully paid his last compliment to a corrupt and bankrupt government because the British people won't allow him to be roped into another neocon war that has ultimately accelerated the race for a NWO.

America please keep your insecurities and Paris Hiltons to yourself because we've given up caring.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
America joined at the end of WW2 when they thought they could be heros


1941 was the end of World War II?

Furthermore, you suggest that America joined because they wanted to be heros. When in fact, the reason they joined was that Japan bombed Pearl Harbour, and Germany declared war on the US a few days later.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
America please keep your insecurities and Paris Hiltons to yourself because we've given up caring.


Apparently not...

Quote:
Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Tuesday June 12, 2007
The Guardian


The world received proof yesterday that prison does indeed work. In an interview from the Los Angeles jail where she is serving a sentence for driving while banned, celebrity inmate Paris Hilton claimed a remarkable transformation in her character. She said she was no longer superficial, had found God, wanted to work with sick children and had not looked in a mirror since entering prison.


http://tinyurl.com/yqygv7
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darkhorse_NZ



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Fill in the blank:

Blair is to poodle as Brown is to ________.


For the darkhorse:

Two names: Coral Sea and Midway.


two great battles, still don't owe you though

The Fall of Singapore

The Battle of Britain

The Battle of the River Plate

The Battle for Greece

The Battle for Crete

The North African Campaign

- Operation Compass

- Operation Crusader

all actions NZ took part in before Pearl Harbour. Do you owe us for fighting the fascists before you came along? No.

like a previous poster said, the idea of historical debt is crap and so was your post
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkhorse_NZ wrote:
...all actions NZ took part in before Pearl Harbour.


I wholly agree with you (we have already covered this ground, I believe): the idea that New Zealand or any other nation-state "owes" America for the war's outcome is absurd.

But, come on man, you (Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) were losing the war before we jumped into the fray. Brave Britain was hanging on by a thread (and our lend-lease and friendliness kept that thread alive, materially, at least, if not morally).

Not just in Europe, either. The Japanese were practically at your doorstep. Even Chile trembled and declined to declare war against Japan for fear of retaliation.

Get real.
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darkhorse_NZ



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where the hell did I say that we were carrying the day with a song and a lark, I just said that at least our hands were dirty, or bloody as the case may be.

I have to say thanks for tipping the balance in favour of the Allies, I'll express my gratitude.

But every day that an RAF pilot took to the sky and held off the Luftwaffe was a day that those same planes wouldn't appear over the skies of New York.

Every day a Destroyer left port or a Battalion marched out of barracks was a day that you could sit comfortable in splendid isolation.

Eventually, you came to the party and we are thankful.

But don't you for a second lord it over us with your 'saved the world' crap.
Because every time you do a veteran turns in his grave.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Good point.

Someone's being too Ameri-centric. Razz
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wannago



Joined: 16 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkhorse_NZ wrote:
Where the hell did I say that we were carrying the day with a song and a lark, I just said that at least our hands were dirty, or bloody as the case may be.

I have to say thanks for tipping the balance in favour of the Allies, I'll express my gratitude.

But every day that an RAF pilot took to the sky and held off the Luftwaffe was a day that those same planes wouldn't appear over the skies of New York.

Every day a Destroyer left port or a Battalion marched out of barracks was a day that you could sit comfortable in splendid isolation.

Eventually, you came to the party and we are thankful.

But don't you for a second lord it over us with your 'saved the world' crap.
Because every time you do a veteran turns in his grave.


Honestly, I could give *beep* all whether anyone in the commonwealth feels gratitude or not. But to discount U.S. involvement in the war because you all wouldn't keep Germany in check for two years is pathetic. The U.S. didn't owe it to you either to wipe your asses because of the inability to keep Germany and Japan from going on a rampage.

The commonwealth has always acted in its best interests. Why is the U.S. always belittled for entering this war a couple of years in? Wasn't it just acting out of its own self interests?

As has been said previously, the allies couldn't have won the war without each other. No nation could have done it alone. It was a great team effort and should be remembered as such. The U.S. didn't save the world, but it helped. But don't, for a minute, pretend that whatever happened prior to December, '41 was to keep the U.S. safe so we could sit in...how did you say?..."splendid isolation." It was your shitty little war and we were dragged into it.
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darkhorse_NZ



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wannago wrote:
darkhorse_NZ wrote:
Where the hell did I say that we were carrying the day with a song and a lark, I just said that at least our hands were dirty, or bloody as the case may be.

I have to say thanks for tipping the balance in favour of the Allies, I'll express my gratitude.

But every day that an RAF pilot took to the sky and held off the Luftwaffe was a day that those same planes wouldn't appear over the skies of New York.

Every day a Destroyer left port or a Battalion marched out of barracks was a day that you could sit comfortable in splendid isolation.

Eventually, you came to the party and we are thankful.

But don't you for a second lord it over us with your 'saved the world' crap.
Because every time you do a veteran turns in his grave.


Honestly, I could give *beep* all whether anyone in the commonwealth feels gratitude or not. But to discount U.S. involvement in the war because you all wouldn't keep Germany in check for two years is pathetic. The U.S. didn't owe it to you either to wipe your asses because of the inability to keep Germany and Japan from going on a rampage.

The commonwealth has always acted in its best interests. Why is the U.S. always belittled for entering this war a couple of years in? Wasn't it just acting out of its own self interests?

As has been said previously, the allies couldn't have won the war without each other. No nation could have done it alone. It was a great team effort and should be remembered as such. The U.S. didn't save the world, but it helped. But don't, for a minute, pretend that whatever happened prior to December, '41 was to keep the U.S. safe so we could sit in...how did you say?..."splendid isolation." It was your *beep* little war and we were dragged into it.


So the Nazis and the Japs weren't an affront to democratic countries everywhere and the United States being the largest and with the most industrial potential wouldn't have got dragged into the war otherwise? when your firends are at war for two years?

So when the terrorist planes hit the Twin Towers that was a direct attack against America right?

So why drag all these other countries into it? Noone flew no plane into Auckland's Sky Tower.

How come we got dragged into it?
-Because we're your friends and allies and we think terrorism is a threat.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We intervened in the First and Second World Wars because, ultimately, our interests mostly converge with Britain and the rest of the Commonwealth's more so than with Italy, Germany, and Japan's.

darkhorse_NZ wrote:
Because we're your friends and allies and we think terrorism is a threat.


Probably everyone in the Commonwealth but Canada, Darkhorse_NZ. Please do not forget that many Canadian -- and some American -- posters believe, as VanIslander and Twg do, that

Quote:
the [W.] Bush [A]dministration was very happy to latch on and extend the concept of al Qaeda (from its traceable "semi-autonomous" origins) to provide a permanent bogeyman for their right wing agenda.

...It's true. And I don't think the neo-con kool-ade drinkers here honestly believe in the "The Threat To Society" they claim is there. They just believe in the social agenda the fear of it is helping them achieve.


Let us remember, then, why the British govt wants to reassure Americans that London remains friendly and not cynical, hostile, and accusatory. And that is why this story is news.

As for me, I welcome New Zealand as the friend you insist it is. And if that is truly the case, then we are the ones who owe you the gratitude for standing with us.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
We intervened in the First and Second World Wars because, ultimately, our interests mostly converge with Britain and the rest of the Commonwealth's more so than with Italy, Germany, and Japan's.

darkhorse_NZ wrote:
Because we're your friends and allies and we think terrorism is a threat.


Probably everyone in the Commonwealth but Canada, Darkhorse_NZ. Do not forget that many Canadian -- and some American -- posters believe, as VanIslander and Twg do, that

Quote:
the [W.] Bush [A]dministration was very happy to latch on and extend the concept of al Qaeda (from its traceable "semi-autonomous" origins) to provide a permanent bogeyman for their right wing agenda.

...It's true. And I don't think the neo-con kool-ade drinkers here honestly believe in the "The Threat To Society" they claim is there. They just believe in the social agenda the fear of it is helping them achieve.


Let us remember, then, why the British govt wants to reassure Americans that London remains friendly and not cynical, hostile, and accusatory. And that is why this story is news.

As for me, I welcome New Zealand as the friend you insist it is.



I am not sure that the British people and Canadian people are that different on their sentiments regarding U.S. foreign policy if you take out the French component of Canada, so it is not without controversy.
Canadians opened their doors and hearts to Americans after 9/11, so thoough there are problems, the two get along, though there is bickering and suspicion, and Canada has been with the U.S. through several wars.
That should count for something. France is an ally of the U.S. though France and the U.S. bickers. If the U.S. wants perfect allies and allied poulations that does not exist and they would be alone. Ponder that one.
The U.S. is far from a perfect ally to those on the other side of the Atlantic as well. They are still allies for better or for worse...
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darkhorse_NZ



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see where you're coming from Gopher. If I was British I'd be ashamed of both Blair and Brown, you can be firm friends without having to give anyone's bumcrack a tonguelashing.

It's just a lot of unnecessary kowtowing and paying tribute at the throne of the Emperor.
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