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Are you homophobic?
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Are you homophobic?

yes

10%

[ 11 ]

60%

[ 63 ]

no, but the whole idea makes me a little sick

28%

[ 30 ]

Total Votes : 104

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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:47 am Post subject:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

[

Dem, you are also equally compromised as I have seen you post on Sundays...a crime punishable by DEATH. Also, if you ever had a garden with mixed plantilife or are wearing clothes that mix fabric (aka, polyester blends) you are sinning greatly. This is also punishable by death. Also, I'm sure you have not murdered those who practice the bible less than you. By all means you should, or you are commiting another sin. Probably punishable by death. Or an eternity burning in hell. Also, you should not eat pork or shellfish. Remember also, to beat your children and not be too cruel to your slaves.

...

Being Christian=following OT law? Teachers here need 4-degrees, don't they?

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:12 am Post subject:

Ok, this is for JMO:

JMO wrote:

I'm pretty sure sodomy doesn't just mean gay sex, it means any sexual act not designed for procreation. In other word if you give/recieve oral sex then you are precticing sodomy.

"Sodomy" refers to the sins of the Sodomites. The word "Sodom" itself is Hebrew for "burnt" (that's a bit of a spoiler.) The word "sodomite" occurs in the King James Version, but the most commonly used Bible translation, the New International Version, doesn't use the word "sodomite" at all-- instead it translates the Hebrew word as "male shrine prostitute." For example, the King James Version translates Deuteronomy 23:17 as " 17There shall be no *beep* of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel," whereas the NIV reads: "17 No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute."

Here's the original story of the Sodomites:
(Bear in mind that this chapter of Genesis is pretty disgusting, ranging from attempted rape, mass slaughter and even incest if you read past this part. It's not a kids' story.)

Quote:

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom�both young and old�surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here�sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
...[everybody in his family flees except Lot's sons-in-law who think he's joking]...

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah�from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities�and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

So, the people of the city of Sodom were guilty of two serious crimes-- trying to gang rape these two angels whom they mistook for men, and also of violating hospitality laws, which this culture took very very seriously (see Lot's *insistence* on helping them and his repulsive offer of his virgin daughters in an effort to protect the guests.)

It's understandable that "sodomy" has come to be associated with anal sex between men, and the term has even been extended to cover all kinds of "deviant" sex, but in the context of the Bible, the definition is much narrower.

Honestly, I'm really glad that people have been talking about this. As Demophobe said, I do in fact need more "study and teaching." Translation issues can be so slippery and divisive. Take these passages for example:

The New International Version (NIV) currently translates Leviticus 18:22 as:

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

The New Living Translation (NLT) widens the translation to also include lesbians:

"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Imagine what would happen if the interpretation by the National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA) was used. Translators might render this verse as:

"Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean.

How do you decide which one is true? It's not fair to pick and choose. It's important to look at the Bible as a whole, in historical context, and in light of personal revelation. Anyway, I'd say I'm still in the process of weighing it out, but in the mean time, gay people don't need me to be mean to them. If they are sinning, and if it's something they need to change, then God can sort it out with them. I'm going to treat them like normal people.

Now, as for mas+urbation and the "spilling of seed," this story has been used, particularly by the Catholic church as a prohibition against masturbation, but in truth, Onan was behaving very badly in quite a different way.

This story is from Genesis 38. To understand it, you have to take into account women's place in that society. Essentially, without a husband to support her and children to provide for her throughout her old age, a woman was completely disenfranchised. Thus, there were laws to make sure that widows and childless women were taken care of. For example, a woman who loses her husband is entitled to marry his brother, so she can stay in the family. Any children borne of that union are given the inheritance of the dead brother, so his line doesn't die out.

Quote:

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

Out of selfishness and jealousy, Onan was refusing to get this woman pregnant, so she wouldn't have anyone to care for her later on in life. It had nothing to do with the coitus interruptus, let alone mas+urbation.

Last edited by kermo on Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:30 am; edited 2 times in total

ChimpumCallao

Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:20 am Post subject:

flakfizer wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

:roll:
Being Christian=following OT law? Teachers here need 4-degrees, don't they?

you either follow the bible or you dont. a jealous, venegeful god was not all about half assed followers, no matter how much you want to say that being 'faithful' doesnt mean following the word of god to a tee. Sorry. It does. Can't pick and choose. Or else you are a bad Christian- not by moral standards, but by biblical ones.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:34 am Post subject:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

flakfizer wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

Being Christian=following OT law? Teachers here need 4-degrees, don't they?

I dunno, CC. The New Testament makes a pretty good case against forcing all Christians to abide by Jewish law, like eating things that are "unclean" and not being circumcised. If you read Acts 11, you'll see that us "Gentiles" don't have to abide by Mosaic law. Even Jesus didn't always fulfil the letter of The Law, like healing on the Sabbath, and eating with "unclean" people.

uberscheisse

Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:36 am Post subject:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

flakfizer wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

Being Christian=following OT law? Teachers here need 4-degrees, don't they?

can a christian not read the bible and assess it for the flawed document it is? do you really have to say "ok, this stuff about putting my wife to death if she offends the lord is still relevant in a modern society."

seriously, if you follow the "word of god" to a tee, then you're someone pretty much any thinking person wants to punch in the face, because it means you're someone who thinks murdering people for trivial crap is a righteous act.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:38 am Post subject:

uberscheisse wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

flakfizer wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

Being Christian=following OT law? Teachers here need 4-degrees, don't they?

Sometimes to follow the Word of God properly, you have to do a lot of digging, cross-referencing and researching before it becomes clear what relevance it has to you. It's hard, and I wish the Bible weren't such a tough nut to crack.

flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:04 am Post subject:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

flakfizer wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

Being Christian=following OT law? Teachers here need 4-degrees, don't they?

So wrong. It's not picking and choosing. Pick up a copy of the NT sometime and read it. You will see that we are "no longer under law." The apostles discussed this very topic when some Jews said that Gentiles had to be circumcised and forced to keep the Law before they could be Christian. They agreed that that ws completely wrong. Paul goes into great detail about all this.
As to that discussion the apostles had. It says in Acts chapter 15:

Quote:

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Also, perhaps that you are not aware that the Pharisees often fought with Jesus because he was "doing what was unlawful on the Sabbath?"

And from Galatians chpt 3:

Quote:

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

"Or else you are a bad Christian- not by moral standards, but by biblical ones." No, by biblical standards christians are not required to follow OT law. Where do you get your info btw?

Grimalkin

Joined: 22 May 2005

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:05 am Post subject:

kermo

Quote:

Do you really think Jesus meant for his followers to have to do all that digging, cross referencing and researching?

Quote:

"I thank You Father for You have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to mere children".

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:10 am Post subject:

Flakfizer, I'm insulted that you didn't read my post! (I said the exact same thing.) Grimalkin, Jesus was always saying puzzling things. His disciples were often scratching their heads, people were walking away in droves going "Who can accept such a teaching?" What do I think? He who has ears, let him ear. He who has Google, let him do a little reading. Maybe being a well-educated-intellectual-type is a little like being a rich man trying to pass through the eye of a needle, and truths that should be obvious become obscure to the "wise and learned."

Grimalkin

Joined: 22 May 2005

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:24 am Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Flakfizer, I'm insulted that you didn't read my post! Wink

(I said the exact same thing.)

Grimalkin, Jesus was always saying puzzling things. His disciples were often scratching their heads, people were walking away in droves going "Who can accept such a teaching?" What do I think? He who has ears, let him ear. He who has Google, let him do a little reading.

Maybe being a well-educated-intellectual-type is a little like being a rich man trying to pass through the eye of a needle, and truths that should be obvious become obscure to the "wise and learned."

I agree with you there. Smile

I certainly believe That Jesus' parables were intended to challenge people to think.

Sometimes I feel though that for christians who study it the bible simply acts like a vast Rorschach test reflecting their own mindset.

For people who see in it a calling to be just, merciful, loving and tolerant it is because they are that way inclined.

For people who see in it a calling to be harsh, judgemental and intolerant it is similarly mirroring their own disposition.

flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:55 am Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Flakfizer, I'm insulted that you didn't read my post! Wink

(I said the exact same thing.)

Pretty much the same, yeah. Well, some people need to be told twice...at least.

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:52 am Post subject:

Thanks Kermo for the explanation. I never actually read the bible so its always interesting to hear from someone who has done their homework as they say. It seems that from what was in that passage, that it is a tad of a stretch to attribute God's wrath to the homosexual element when it was more likely the attempted rape and break of hospilality that was the cause. Really interesting stuff.

uberscheisse

Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:54 am Post subject:

yeah, kermo.... i appreciate the rundown on sodom and onan. it's strange how the people who "disapprove" of homosexuality can try and make those passages of the bible look vague and then twist them for evil purposes. it just makes so little sense to me. perhaps i oversimplify things, but if being a christian is being christ-like, then a christian needs to ask "what would jesus do?" i think that had jesus' mindset been applied to our times he would have embraced homosexuals. everything i remember of the jesus story suggests he would have blessed them as god's children and not judged them for where they chose to leave sperm. and it's hilarious how mortal men think they have the power to assert disapproval of it. kind of an arrogant way to be.

Demophobe

Joined: 17 May 2004

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

twg wrote:

Demophobe wrote:

The Word doesn't change with the times

The Word, in Leviticus 20:13 wrote:

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

The word doesn't change, correct? And since you seem to be implying that you're not a compromised Christian, you support the murder of homosexuals.

Yes or no?

Agree. You implied Kermo is a compromised Christian because she does not follow the full doctrine ver batum. If this is what you are saying...then yes, she is. You cannot argue with that. All Christians are compromised as they tend to pick and choose what fits their worldview.

Dem, you are also equally compromised as I have seen you post on Sundays...a crime punishable by DEATH. Also, if you ever had a garden with mixed plantilife or are wearing clothes that mix fabric (aka, polyester blends) you are sinning greatly. This is also punishable by death. Also, I'm sure you have not murdered those who practice the bible less than you. By all means you should, or you are commiting another sin. Probably punishable by death. Or an eternity burning in hell. Also, you should not eat pork or shellfish. Remember also, to beat your children and not be too cruel to your slaves.

And beware the genies....

Oh wait, that's Islam...

Old testament. Pretty heavy stuff. People always go back to it when they need to affirm their anti-Christian stance, because from our standpoint, it seems unreasonable and over the top. Maybe, but in it's time, it was what was going on. Tough stuff, but there you have it. I guess we cant put ourselves back that far and even begin to understand that they were vastly different times. Nobody thought any different. Tough times indeed.

Posting on Sunday is a crime punishable by death? Laughing

Right. Grasping at straws. In fact Chimpum, your entire post reads more like a Monty Python script than anything else. God indeed doesn't want half-hearted worshipers, so we struggle to live better and more Christ-like everyday.

I am a sinner? You bet, and that is why I pray, repent and rejoice in my forgiveness. Homosexuals are not "bad" people; I see how my post was not clear on that. It seems to me that as society embraces and thus validates the homosexual lifestyle, it becomes an accepted sin and so, a compromise. As we embrace these compromises, people don't perceive it as a sin; look at what is going on right here. There is no doubt at all that it is a sin and goes against every idea God had for us. People engaged in a practice that is validated by society are less likely to repent, and thus, continue in sin.

We all sin, but the idea is that when we sin, we recognize it and try our utmost not to repeat the same sin. This is spiritual growth. To do the opposite is a regression, and though a repentant heart will never be denied, walking down the same sinful paths is not desirable. Being a Christian isn't about going in circles, its about growing. Growth means moving past yourself and your sins, putting them behind you and being stronger because of it.

Like it or not, most laws in developed countries were founded on the bible. As we become more "enlightened", (which is actually moving more towards darkness) we amend and compromise these biblical foundations. The acceptance of homosexuality is one of these. If people want to engage in homosexual relationships, I guess that is their choice, but why does society and everyone in it have to accept it? Why do I, or be called names?

Anyhow, I will follow the Word. An unrepentant homosexual is not in accord with the Word, and I feel the same way. Its wrong and it needs to be left up on the cross with the rest of our sinful selves. Deny the flesh.

For what its worth, being a Christian isn't restrictive at all. Its liberating actually. I don't expect any non-Christian to understand that idea, but its true. Its an incredibly difficult road, a daily challenge, requires huge discipline and a strong will. The rewards are huge though, and no, I don't mean simply dying and going to Heaven, though that is the final grace. I enjoy my life and am nowhere near where I want to be before I have to stand in judgment. I have much more work to do in His name before I leave, and in this way, I enjoy my life and have no wish for it to end. The world is a sick place though, and that is tough to endure. I cannot say I haven't wished to be taken, but that is idle fancy and the easy way out, which is rarely the right way.

The rewards are great for the repentant heart. I don't pick and choose, but I make mistakes. As I learn, I don't make those mistakes, yet daily, new ones will come up. This is the life. Its like whack-a-mole for a long time until those little buggers stop popping up so frequently; this is our maturation and growth in God.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject:

Demophobe, I totally support you in following the word, but isn't it worth looking as closely as we can at the original text to find out what The Word really means?

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