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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Why would I retract what I said when it is correct information and the only thing you have against it is that it does not sound right to you?
In any case, I did not assault you with a personal attack. I merely find it odd that I would cite two examples of credible institutions and their "Incomplete" policies on America's East and West Coasts and that you would suggest that my understanding was limited by "a geographical problem." |
Geographical problems could be outside of America too, though I didn't think that had needed to be specified. Your information has not been proven to be correct Gopher. You have found institutions which are credible (I think I understand your definition of credible, though that could differ too) that follow that policy. That does not prove that all do it and non-credible ones don't follow it.
Of course I would continue to reject it, though it would lean my opinion towards your hypothesis. It still wouldn't prove it, but an opinion doesn't have to be proved. Can you actually name 100 ones that do?
If you see that a lot of birds fly, you can't make a statement saying all birds fly without some sort of proof, as chickens don't. For this topic, it would be a national law or guideline (just one example) if you are keeping your observations confined to America for the credibility of the universities that follow that policy. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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This is not about birds that fly or hypotheses or logic games and manipulations, Laogaiguk. It is about credible, American institutions (I apparently need to remind you that Alyallen and I were discussing American institutions, above; or did you come at me without even confirming what we were talking about again?) and their "Incomplete" policies.
Easily verifiable.
Take Duke University's Arts & Sciences College, for example...
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Policy
If you find that you are unable to complete your work for a course because of illness, emergency, or reasonable cause, you should discuss this with your instructor and your academic dean. It is sometimes possible for your instructor to issue you an Incomplete, or "I." This will allow you to complete the course work after the semester has finished. There are several issues that you and your instructor should be aware of if you are thinking about requesting an Incomplete.
Once recorded, a notation of "I" remains on your transcript even after the final grade is assigned... |
And no, I will not continue educating you on this issue. Two points make a line, Laogaiguk. Three make it a pretty solid line. Take it or leave it. I am bored with this. It is a tangent at best. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
This is not about birds that fly or hypotheses or logic games and manipulations, Laogaiguk. It is about credible, American institutions (I apparently need to remind you that Alyallen and I were discussing American institutions, above; or did you come at me without even confirming what we were talking about again?) and their "Incomplete" policies.
Easily verifiable.
Take Duke University's Arts & Sciences College, for example...
| Quote: |
Policy
If you find that you are unable to complete your work for a course because of illness, emergency, or reasonable cause, you should discuss this with your instructor and your academic dean. It is sometimes possible for your instructor to issue you an Incomplete, or "I." This will allow you to complete the course work after the semester has finished. There are several issues that you and your instructor should be aware of if you are thinking about requesting an Incomplete.
Once recorded, a notation of "I" remains on your transcript even after the final grade is assigned... |
And no, I will not continue educating you on this issue. Two points make a line, Laogaiguk. Three make it a pretty solid line. Take it or leave it. I am bored with this. It is a tangent at best. |
If it's your opinion, you can leave it at that. You have not proven it by far though, and can't state it as fact at the moment.
Also, let's stay on subject and not resort to immature attack tactics and superior, smug attitudes. |
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Richard Krainium
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I don't know any universities that do this (the incomplete thing). Not to say there aren't any, as obviously there are. But backing up a statement like "credible institutions note this" with a bit more fact than a limited scope of observations (observations of schools they went to) would be helpful. |
UCLA, Duke and Cornell. What more do you want laogaiguk?
I know that California State Universities have the same policy that Gopher cited.
Last edited by Richard Krainium on Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Krainium wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I don't know any universities that do this (the incomplete thing). Not to say there aren't any, as obviously there are. But backing up a statement like "credible institutions note this" with a bit more fact than a limited scope of observations (observations of schools they went to) would be helpful. |
UCLA, Duke and Cornell. What more do you want laogaiguk?
I know that California State Universities have the same policy that Gopher cited. At least they did when I attended. |
Yes, but do they all? I don't understand the lack of understanding of my question. If it is an opinion or hypothesis, fine. But his observations do not constitute a proof (fact) that that is the case at all universities that are considered credible. I am not saying he is wrong. I am saying that he hasn't proved it yet.
You can't prove a global characteristic by citing several examples that fit. You could statistically say it's proved to a certain amount of error, but you would need a much larger sample base.
I am starting to wonder how many people here had to defend an actual thesis (not just because of this thread). Fact, hypothesis and opinion are all very different things. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| You can't prove a global characteristic... |
Hey Einstein, Cmmdr. Data, whoever you think you are tonight: for the second or third time on this thread, I never referenced any "global characteristics." I was speaking, and with another poster before you intervened, on credible American institutions and their "Incomplete" policies.
Please put that datum in your "hypothesis" or whatever it is you are calling this attack on my credibility over this tangential claim. |
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andrew
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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*****
Last edited by andrew on Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Krainium
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Richard Krainium wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I don't know any universities that do this (the incomplete thing). Not to say there aren't any, as obviously there are. But backing up a statement like "credible institutions note this" with a bit more fact than a limited scope of observations (observations of schools they went to) would be helpful. |
UCLA, Duke and Cornell. What more do you want laogaiguk?
I know that California State Universities have the same policy that Gopher cited. At least they did when I attended. |
Yes, but do they all? I don't understand the lack of understanding of my question. If it is an opinion or hypothesis, fine. But his observations do not constitute a proof (fact) that that is the case at all universities that are considered credible. I am not saying he is wrong. I am saying that he hasn't proved it yet.
You can't prove a global characteristic by citing several examples that fit. You could statistically say it's proved to a certain amount of error, but you would need a much larger sample base.
I am starting to wonder how many people here had to defend an actual thesis (not just because of this thread). Fact, hypothesis and opinion are all very different things. |
When can you ever say "all"? I will say all CSU (California State Universities) and UC (University of California) systems use this policy.
Gopher also cited Duke and Cornell. I'd bet most Ivy League Uni's submit to this policy also.
East Podunk University, well maybe they don't permanently mark your transcripts with an Incomplete. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Hey Einstein, Cmmdr. Data, whoever you think you are tonight: for the second or third time on this thread, I never referenced any "global characteristics." I was speaking, and with another poster before you intervened, on credible American institutions and their "Incomplete" policies.
Please put that datum in your "hypothesis" or whatever it is you are calling this attack on my credibility over this tangential claim. |
You said this...
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Credible institutions do note this. Every university I have studied at and taught at (UC schools and others I will not mention) places an "I" on your permanent transcript. When you complete your coursework you might earn an "A" or any other appropriate grade (and if you do not, it becomes an "F" after a year). But the "I" remains next to your final grade on your permanent transcripts. -- And it is something graduate and professional admissions committees take into consideration all the time. It is part of how they measure applicants' potential.
I know this for a fact. I have issued such grades several times and I have reviewed and explained the policy with the students who asked for them.
You may not think this sounds right to you. But I am citing actual policy from several locations. And, always, Alyallen, you may take it or leave it. |
It is a fact for your university. It is not a fact for every university until you prove it for every university, somehow (such as a national mandate, etc). I have also not attacked your credibility, I have attacked your use of the word "credible" and asked you to prove it, which you have yet to do and I will no longer respond until you do, or say it is your opinion based on your observations and some examples and NOT fact.
Again, your personal attacks show a very low maturity level. Most of your posts in this debate seem to resort to name calling, personal attacks based on history or extremely arrogant and superior attitude shown through your words. I will not debate with a child. Good day. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Richard Krainium wrote: |
When can you ever say "all"? I will say all CSU (California State Universities) and UC (University of California) systems use this policy.
Gopher also cited Duke and Cornell. I'd bet most Ivy League Uni's submit to this policy also.
East Podunk University, well maybe they don't permanently mark your transcripts with an Incomplete. |
Exactly, and hence Gopher should say it was like that at his institution and the others he has checked, and not that "Credible institutions do note this." (meaning all credible institutions)
Your bet is probably right. But it's still a guess, and CAN NOT be stated as a fact for every place. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| ...Notation of the original incomplete status of the grade remains on the student�s transcript along with the final grade. |
Could not Locate East Podunk, Richard Krainium. But how about University of Denver (cited above)?
...or George Washington University (cited below)?
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| Conditions under which the grade of I (Incomplete) is assigned are described under University Regulations. The grade of I must be changed by a date agreed on by the instructor and the student but no later than the last day of the examination period for the fall or spring semester immediately following the semester or summer session in which the grade of I is assigned. An Incomplete that is not changed within this period automatically becomes an IF. In cases of well-documented extenuating circumstances, an instructor and a student may jointly petition the director of the Advising Center for additional time in which to complete the work of the course. Such petitions should be submitted within the same period. The grade of I cannot be changed by reregistering for the course here or by taking its equivalent elsewhere. The I notation remains on the student�s permanent record even after the course has been successfully completed. |
If I said "the Sun rises in the East," Laogaiguk, would you insist I needed to show you photographs from every single day of a year, and then produce photographs documenting a decade or so, or centuries, or what-have-you, before you believed it?
You mentioned "theses." I am thinking of one now. I might just title it "Reinventing the Wheel Every Time: How to Talk to the Internet Community." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
You mentioned "theses." I am thinking of one now. I might just title it "Reinventing the Wheel Every Time: How to Talk to the Internet Community." |
 Cute. |
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excitinghead
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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I was one of Buchanan's students back in 97,98, and '99. Because he came from a rich family, he was a bit of a maverick from Day 1, quite happy to say exactly what he thought on anything, especially University matters, because he was never particularly worried about being fired. Actually, I'm suprised he lasted 10 years.
Having said that, once he came to NZ he really started to like the lifestyle there and may have actually have toned his comments, because there's not many alternatives to Auckland University if you want to live in Auckland and stay in academia. Like he said back when I was his student, if he was ever fired he'd probably move on to Australia where he could have a similar lifestyle.
Towards '99 I received similar emails like this student did from him, but that was after I'd given yet another lame excuse for an extension and he was just sick of me, and in fact he apologised for the tone of them afterwards on a couple of occasions. But he never sent emails like that at the beginning, it was only after I made excuse after excuse for not handing essays in on time. So while the email was a bit overboard for someone who's father had just died, it sounds like she had it coming and he was justified in thinking she was lying.
By the way, I spent a total of 6 years doing my degree part-time while I worked, but out of the dozens and dozens of lecturers I had only he and one other I'd describe as motivating and brilliant. There'll be a real push from students to reinstate him, but having criticised NZ's sacred cash cow of blindly accepting any foreign student with money then I don't think he will be. |
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Boreal
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Don't most professors wait until after they've got tenure to be this blunt?
Really, students give pathetic excuses and I was no exception, and finding out that crying wolf gets no sympathy in the end may be a better lesson taught than a grad program.
The lesson for the professor? Don't go attacking Western liberal guilt in academia. Even in the most hardcore right-wing Bush-fanatic parts of the US, I've seen how most of the non-business professors were socialists if not further left. |
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