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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
I thought the overseas chinese histoically controlled a large % of the indonesian economy. Could that be the reason for the backlash. This has many more sides to it than just the muslim angle obviously. Simple resentment would probably do the trick.
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Yes, when thousands of Chinese were attacked, and many hundreds raped the men doing it did indeed say it was because the Chinese dominate the economy.
Though, it is surprising then, that they neglected to torch the business and homes of Chinese muslims.
Either way, it is the same in Singapore, Malaysia as it is in Indonesia. The Chinese trade and work the arses off. The muslims demand concessions and favoritism from their governments. The hubris and arrogance of the muslims is astounding.
In Singapore, if you take a walk along the Esplanade at night (across from the Merlion, for those who have been here) you will see hundreds and hundreds of kids hanging out, listing to music and relaxing with their friends. They line the water for about a Km. They cause no problems or anything like that, but stay out very late. It is, by my estimation, about 80% Malay (who are about 12% of the Singapore population). I asked a Singaporean-Chinese friend of mine where the Chinese kids are.. He said: "Studying".
That is why the muslims and non-mulims have such a massive economic disparity. islamic culture, in this region, has almost zero respect for non-muslim education. Same in Indonesia and Malaysia. Walk around the cities. The Chinese are trading and the muslims are loitering. In Singapore, go to the Universities. Despite affirmative action for Malays they are almost fully absent.
So, yeah. The Chinese control huge parts of the economy. And the reasons are directly related to their non-muslimness. Proud beggars, the Chinese are not.
When your religion teaches you that your people are entitled to the world on a silver platter, don't be surprised when people act arrogantly and divinely entitled. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
I thought the overseas chinese histoically controlled a large % of the indonesian economy. Could that be the reason for the backlash. This has many more sides to it than just the muslim angle obviously. Simple resentment would probably do the trick.
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Yes, when thousands of Chinese were attacked, and many hundreds raped the men doing it did indeed say it was because the Chinese dominate the economy.
Though, it is surprising then, that they neglected to torch the business and homes of Chinese muslims.
Either way, it is the same in Singapore, Malaysia as it is in Indonesia. The Chinese trade and work the arses off. The muslims demand concessions and favoritism from their governments. The hubris and arrogance of the muslims is astounding.
In Singapore, if you take a walk along the Esplanade at night (across from the Merlion, for those who have been here) you will see hundreds and hundreds of kids hanging out, listing to music and relaxing with their friends. They line the water for about a Km. They cause no problems or anything like that, but stay out very late. It is, by my estimation, about 80% Malay (who are about 12% of the Singapore population). I asked a Singaporean-Chinese friend of mine where the Chinese kids are.. He said: "Studying".
That is why the muslims and non-mulims have such a massive economic disparity. islamic culture, in this region, has almost zero respect for non-muslim education. Same in Indonesia and Malaysia. Walk around the cities. The Chinese are trading and the muslims are loitering. In Singapore, go to the Universities. Despite affirmative action for Malays they are almost fully absent.
So, yeah. The Chinese control huge parts of the economy. And the reasons are directly related to their non-muslimness. Proud beggars, the Chinese are not.
When your religion teaches you that your people are entitled to the world on a silver platter, don't be surprised when people act arrogantly and divinely entitled. |
This is just funny. You really look at this and thought "mmm those muslims look lazy, thats why they have less control of the economy".
The overseas chinese in Indonesia have been involved with the economy out of proportion to their numbers since the fifteenth century. Since then they also enjoyed dutch patronage when it was a dutch colony. With such a long history in the country, labeling their ascendacy as just a product of harder work is ridiculous. Do you really think that the people who worked hardest are the ones that control economies? You are charmingly naive if that is so.
Its true that the chinese are more involved in trading as it is their heritage in that region. This is not the main reason for their ascendacy however. It does not boil down to chinese good: muslim bad. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Nonsense.
The muslims do not work as hard, trade as much, study as much and spend much more time agitating their government for privileges than do the Chinese.
The muslims do not attend university to even a sliver of a %age as do the Chinese in Singapore.
But yes, the differences must be from colonial patterns of 400 years ago. You found a way to try and protect the muslims and at the same time blame whitey. Unfortunately, it is 180degrees wrong.
Look at the Chinese diaspora around the world. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Vancouver, San Fransisco, Seattle. Everywhere the Chinese go they are successful. Their culture values education and hard work. The value success and hold laziness and failure in contempt. Berkley is almost 60% north east Asian now.
The Chinese is the USA were low skilled, low wage, low education migrant labour. They are now exceedingly successful. Despite their past roles, they have pulled themselves up. The muslims can't do this in their own countries?
How about the muslim diaspora? Are they near as successful? Even a little? Compare the mulims and Chinese in Britain or Canada. Why would the outcome be any different in Indonesia or Malaysia.
You need to realize that the structure of islam itself, as in, the values and hubris, lead to certain outcomes among the muslims. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Nonsense.
The muslims do not work as hard, trade as much, study as much and spend much more time agitating their government for privileges than do the Chinese.
The muslims do not attend university to even a sliver of a %age as do the Chinese in Singapore.
But yes, the differences must be from colonial patterns of 400 years ago. You found a way to try and protect the muslims and at the same time blame whitey. Unfortunately, it is 180degrees wrong.
Look at the Chinese diaspora around the world. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Vancouver, San Fransisco, Seattle. Everywhere the Chinese go they are successful. Their culture values education and hard work. The value success and hold laziness and failure in contempt. Berkley is almost 60% north east Asian now.
The Chinese is the USA were low skilled, low wage, low education migrant labour. They are now exceedingly successful. Despite their past roles, they have pulled themselves up. The muslims can't do this in their own countries?
How about the muslim diaspora? Are they near as successful? Even a little? Compare the mulims and Chinese in Britain or Canada. Why would the outcome be any different in Indonesia or Malaysia.
You need to realize that the structure of islam itself, as in, the values and hubris, lead to certain outcomes among the muslims. |
Would this not apply to other races/peoples as well. For example jewish people are normally successful where they go whilst black immigrants tend to be not as successful. Maybe the solution to our problems is to only let the chinese and jews in. Makes sense.
Actually it is more than 400 years ago and yes it can be traced back to before the dutch colony. I'm not blaming whitey but it is a fact that under the dutch colonial caste system the chinese were a notch above the locals. There is no blame, there are just reasons. These reasons are normally much more complicated than you would like to admit. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
Would this not apply to other races/peoples as well. For example jewish people are normally successful where they go whilst black immigrants tend to be not as successful. Maybe the solution to our problems is to only let the chinese and jews in. Makes sense.
Actually it is more than 400 years ago and yes it can be traced back to before the dutch colony. I'm not blaming whitey but it is a fact that under the dutch colonial caste system the chinese were a notch above the locals. There is no blame, there are just reasons. These reasons are normally much more complicated than you would like to admit. |
The most successful minority/immigrant group to the USA is Africans. They are the model minority, actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Black_immigrants_from_Africa
So, now the muslims are poor and backwards in muslim countries because 400 years ago the Chinese were in a better position? In the USA an Asian woman will likely out-earn a White man in lifetime employment (provided she doesn't have kids). Her family likely came to America under extremely crushing conditions. Look at them now.
400 years ago doesn't cut it. Indonesia and Malaysia have hyper-racist government polices that severely limit the economic actions of Chinese and privilege the muslims and STILL the Chinese do better.
You just can't escape Truth.
What a people value will determine their outcomes. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
Would this not apply to other races/peoples as well. For example jewish people are normally successful where they go whilst black immigrants tend to be not as successful. Maybe the solution to our problems is to only let the chinese and jews in. Makes sense.
Actually it is more than 400 years ago and yes it can be traced back to before the dutch colony. I'm not blaming whitey but it is a fact that under the dutch colonial caste system the chinese were a notch above the locals. There is no blame, there are just reasons. These reasons are normally much more complicated than you would like to admit. |
The most successful minority/immigrant group to the USA is Africans. They are the model minority, actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Black_immigrants_from_Africa
So, now the muslims are poor and backwards in muslim countries because 400 years ago the Chinese were in a better position? In the USA an Asian woman will likely out-earn a White man in lifetime employment (provided she doesn't have kids). Her family likely came to America under extremely crushing conditions. Look at them now.
400 years ago doesn't cut it. Indonesia and Malaysia have hyper-racist government polices that severely limit the economic actions of Chinese and privilege the muslims and STILL the Chinese do better.
You just can't escape Truth.
What a people value will determine their outcomes. |
400 years ago, 600 years ago, what matter. What i am saying is that the reasons for chinese dominance of that economy has historical roots. Are you denying that? The world did not start yesterday.
I don't think the fact that some immigrant comunities do better than others(or much better in african americans case) is the only reason the overseas chinese are so powerful in the region. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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To the extent that that matters at all, it doesn't matter in any meaningful way at all.
Indonesia and Malaysia (though Malaysia much more so) are hyper-uber-super-racist states. There is a whole system designed to prevent Chinese commercial domination. And even in this environment, the Chinese still out trade/work/study and earn. There is a very good reason for this.
What a people value will determine their outcomes.
This is an elementary conclusion in every sense. Of course the values a group hold will influence their collective outcomes. Of course.
There is fully zero structural, racial and social barriers to muslim success in Indonesia and Malaysia when compared to the Chinese -- quite the opposite. And even still. There is no excuse.
For your economics lesson of the week:
If some Chinese have fantastic wealth (which some most certainly do) that doesn't mean anything of substance. Because X is wealthy doesn't not mean that Y must be poor. The economic pie is not finite. It can be grown. And economic growth comes from:
1) entrepreneurial activity
2) division of labour (return on education)
3) ownership and exercise of property.
4) others, unrelated
There is no reason that Indonesian muslims can not grow their pie. None. Not a single one.
The reason that they don't is that they have different values. To a Chinese man, serving your family means working like a dog (similar to Korea). Not so in Malay/Indo culture. Serving your family means being home, being a "good muslim" and the like. This value-sets will create differing outcomes. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
To the extent that that matters at all, it doesn't matter in any meaningful way at all.
Indonesia and Malaysia (though Malaysia much more so) are hyper-uber-super-racist states. There is a whole system designed to prevent Chinese commercial domination. And even in this environment, the Chinese still out trade/work/study and earn. There is a very good reason for this.
What a people value will determine their outcomes.
This is an elementary conclusion in every sense. Of course the values a group hold will influence their collective outcomes. Of course.
There is fully zero structural, racial and social barriers to muslim success in Indonesia and Malaysia when compared to the Chinese -- quite the opposite. And even still. There is no excuse.
For your economics lesson of the week:
If some Chinese have fantastic wealth (which some most certainly do) that doesn't mean anything of substance. Because X is wealthy doesn't not mean that Y must be poor. The economic pie is not finite. It can be grown. And economic growth comes from:
1) entrepreneurial activity
2) division of labour (return on education)
3) ownership and exercise of property.
4) others, unrelated
There is no reason that Indonesian muslims can not grow their pie. None. Not a single one.
The reason that they don't is that they have different values. To a Chinese man, serving your family means working like a dog (similar to Korea). Not so in Malay/Indo culture. Serving your family means being home, being a "good muslim" and the like. This value-sets will create differing outcomes. |
Fair enough. I don't know much about economics but they do seem to have different values, not that there is anything wrong with either.
To get back to the OP, the reasons for anti-chinese race riots had economic origins as well as religious ones. I think we can agree on that. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. There were economic reasons.
But, in Singapore, the riots started on Mohammad's birthday... |
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JAZZYJJJ
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think you could argue any diaspora is more likely to be successful due to the very fact that if they took the initiative to emigrate, they are more likely to display initiative in other areas of their life.
Furthermore, look at the areas the Jewish/Chinese/Indian diaspora work in. It is usually commerce, and urban based. Compare this to your average Malay or Indonesian. They are more likely to be agrarian based. This cannot be ignored when you examine the socio-economic fortunes of the respective ethnic groups in Malaysia, Indonesia, or anywhere for that matter. Couple this with the fact that farming is seasonal, and you may now see why Malays and the like are 'idle' and the Chinese are 'busy'.
Finally, there have been clashes in the Pacific between the locals and the immigrant Indian community. Similar to those you speak of in Singapore and Indonesia. Religion may play a factor, but I think it is more akin to a haves/heve nots situation.
J. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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BJWD wrote:
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| While I tend to agree with the Economist most of the time, in the case of Turkey they are out of their minds. It is true that the islamists are going to behave "liberally" for the time being, when compared to the military governments and military-supported secular governments that have dominated post-Ataturk Turkey. |
Well, I dunno. Do you have evidence that the AK government is planning to pass legislation repealing its own pro-equality laws? And if you're going to reply "well yeah, because that's what Muslims would do", then it seems to me you're engaged in circular reasoning.
My understanding is that the AK passed these laws at least in part to further the goal of EU membership. So it's hard to see how they could then repeal the laws without jeopardizing that goal. I suppose maybe they're planning to wait for membership to go through, and then turn around and repeal the laws. But then, that would result in their own immediate expulsion from the EU. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| While I tend to agree with the Economist most of the time, in the case of Turkey they are out of their minds. It is true that the islamists are going to behave "liberally" for the time being, when compared to the military governments and military-supported secular governments that have dominated post-Ataturk Turkey. |
Well, I dunno. Do you have evidence that the AK government is planning to pass legislation repealing its own pro-equality laws? And if you're going to reply "well yeah, because that's what Muslims would do", then it seems to me you're engaged in circular reasoning.
My understanding is that the AK passed these laws at least in part to further the goal of EU membership. So it's hard to see how they could then repeal the laws without jeopardizing that goal. I suppose maybe they're planning to wait for membership to go through, and then turn around and repeal the laws. But then, that would result in their own immediate expulsion from the EU. |
You might be right. Their intentions could be solid.
But it doesn't have to be that the government anticipates the outcome it is going to get, either. Once the wall of secularism in the Turkish Republic is gone, I don't see any reason why she would not follow the path of Indonesia and watch her people become more and more radical.
islam has been, and still is fiercely and tightly controlled by the state. Most of the imams have their sermons written for them by the state and almost every single mosque in the country is owned by the state. When islam is freed from governmental control, which is where this is heading, it will be very hard for the larger movements in the muslim world not to influence Turkey's path.
I tend to be a tad pessimistic about islamic affairs, so my opinion shouldn't surprise you (and doesn't, I'm sure).
Lets keep in mind, too, that Turkey is more than Istanbul, Izmir and Antalya. Outside of the major cities it is as backwards as anything Iran could come up with. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JAZZYJJJ wrote: |
Would the same thing happen in Indonesia??? No.
Saudi Arabia does not equal the Muslim world. They are racist *beep*.
J. |
Point is that as long as sharia is a part of islam, there exists the propensity to lapse into it, in every muslim country, depending on the tide of politics at the time.
You mention Indonesia. not only are the govt. troops the mechanism of mass brutality, they are islamics which stood by while christians were ethnically cleansed and driven out.
"Amidst the spiralling brutality, violence, rapes and burning of villages by the Indonesian security forces against the people of Aceh Province that made the Kosovo conflict pale by comparison"
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cove/4232/9909/INA-aceh9909.html
Sunday, 6 May 2007
Indonesia: Christians arrested, charged, for offending Islam
Jakarta (AsiaNews) � 41 Christians arrested in Malang, Indonesia will have to answer to judge over accusations that they blasphemed Islam.
http://christianophobia-watch.blogspot.com/2007/05/indonesia-christians-arrested-charged.html |
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JAZZYJJJ
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| You mention Indonesia. not only are the govt. troops the mechanism of mass brutality, they are islamics which stood by while christians were ethnically cleansed and driven out. |
I disagree strongly with this. There is nothing 'green' about the TNI. They are not islamics(islamists). They are pro Javanese/ruling elite/status quo. Have they allowed and participated in arocities? Yes. Just ask the Acehnese, Timorese and Papuans. Have they done this because of religion? No. It has been done because these peoples have threatened national unity, TNI's raison d'etre (excuse my French).
But again, this whole thread has gone way off topic. A black man tried to help an elderly woman of a different racial group. Authorities over-reacted because they are racist. Religion is irrelevant here. People will be anti-Islam for a variety of reasons, some justified, others not. What was mentioned in the OP falls into the latter category.
J. |
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