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patongpanda
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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 Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Nobody is talking about restricting religious freedom. There is no right to migrate.
I'm saying that the West doesn't have to accept muslim immigration. Start and stop. We don't have to.
And we should seriously evaluate why we are accepting them now. |
You are saying lets not restrict religious freedom, lets just not let anyone from a certain religion into the country. |
Exactly.
You see, a religion isn't a real "thing". It is just an idea that very weak, in-evolution humans (which is most of us) have. There is no validity to the muslim idea. It is just an idea. And, as Adam Smith insisted, it is ideas, and not trade, that drive history. Ideas can function like a cancer, spreading through a society. While we can never limit freedom of speech at home, we have no compulsion or obligation to allow barbaric ideas and their backwards adherents to settle in our lands.
Saudi does not have to accept me and Canada does not have to accept a Saudi. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Nobody is talking about restricting religious freedom. There is no right to migrate.
I'm saying that the West doesn't have to accept muslim immigration. Start and stop. We don't have to.
And we should seriously evaluate why we are accepting them now. |
You are saying lets not restrict religious freedom, lets just not let anyone from a certain religion into the country. |
Exactly.
You see, a religion isn't a real "thing". It is just an idea that very weak, in-evolution humans (which is most of us) have. There is no validity to the muslim idea. It is just an idea. And, as Adam Smith insisted, it is ideas, and not trade, that drive history. Ideas can function like a cancer, spreading through a society. While we can never limit freedom of speech at home, we have no compulsion or obligation to allow barbaric ideas and their backwards adherents to settle in our lands.
Saudi does not have to accept me and Canada does not have to accept a Saudi. |
You are excluding people because of an idea. This is nonsense. It doesn't matter if there is validity to it. It doesn't matter what idea a person has, if they fit the criteria for immigration they should be allowed in. Ireland is not Saudi Arabia, something I am very thankful for. And just to cut you off at the pass, Ireland will not become Saudi Arabia because of muslim immigration.
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or obligation to allow barbaric ideas and their backwards adherents to settle in our lands.
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Just because someone is muslim doesn't mean they follow everything in the koran. You are doing it again. Stop putting all muslims into one group. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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The more muslims that move to Ireland the more muslim Ireland will become. Full stop.
As Mark Steyn says I'm a conservative dude in my actions. For me, I can just grow my beard a little longer and keep my head down.
But what of people unlike me? How will an increasingly muslim Dublin affect the lives of gays, for example? I'm sure you've noticed that in the face of secularism, muslims tend to define themselves more strongly as muslim, so I see little hope for any moderation in their religion. How will a gay dude in Dublin do in our new tolerant world? Should our governments be importing people who reject the liberal victories of the past 50 years? Jesus, we have hardly moderated the Christians and you say import more religious nuts? |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
The more muslims that move to Ireland the more muslim Ireland will become. Full stop.
As Mark Steyn says I'm a conservative dude in my actions. For me, I can just grow my beard a little longer and keep my head down.
But what of people unlike me? How will an increasingly muslim Dublin affect the lives of gays, for example? I'm sure you've noticed that in the face of secularism, muslims tend to define themselves more strongly as muslim, so I see little hope for any moderation in their religion. How will a gay dude in Dublin do in our new tolerant world? Should our governments be importing people who reject the liberal victories of the past 50 years? Jesus, we have hardly moderated the Christians and you say import more religious nuts? |
liberal victoreis of the last 50 years? in ireland? More like last 20 or 30 years. Based on the supposition the gay people will be treated badly in a Dublin that has a higher percentage of muslims than now, we should ban muslims from entering Ireland? Thats your point?
Again not a good reason to ban all muslims from entering Ireland. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes.
What has been built is getting very good. The victories against religious nonsense are the cornerstone of the West. Progress is only progress against superstition and religiosity.
No other group causes as many problems around the world as does muslims. You pick the conflict, and I'm damn sure I can guess one of the two participants 8 times out of 10. The values are violent, supremacist an incompatible with anything resembling a civilization.
So, I'm sure that some normal, secular Turks and such will be impacted from this. To keep out the barbarians we will end up preventing some decent people from coming too. So be it. My knees are strong. My country is not an NGO. Us first. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Yes.
What has been built is getting very good. The victories against religious nonsense are the cornerstone of the West. Progress is only progress against superstition and religiosity.
No other group causes as many problems around the world as does muslims. You pick the conflict, and I'm damn sure I can guess one of the two participants 8 times out of 10. The values are violent, supremacist an incompatible with anything resembling a civilization.
So, I'm sure that some normal, secular Turks and such will be impacted from this. To keep out the barbarians we will end up preventing some decent people from coming too. So be it. My knees are strong. My country is not an NGO. Us first. |
Muslims=barbarians? Muslim=supremacist? Muslim=violent? Muslim=uncivilized? Think about what you are saying and what it says about you. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I stand by it.
Someone who is an obedient muslim, meaning that she/he believes the koran to be True, IS supremacist, homophobic, sexist, an advocate of (or believer in the justness of) mass killing and is uncivilized.
I will not apologize for extending my ideas of right/wrong to others. Killing is wrong always. Homophobia is wrong always. Placing women in a 2nd class status is wrong always. Always. If you disagree with any of the above, you are an uncivilized thug.
If you are an ethnic muslim in the way I am an ethnic Catholic, meaning mom and dad are but you were smart enough to reject that nonsense for the crap that it is, then I have no problem with you. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you, BJWD. And I wish I didn't have to.
I also wish that backwards-thinking people did not have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Actually, maybe they don't have to be.
Let them kick and scream at each other back in their homelands. Many people need their own course for revolutionary change before they are fit for 'global consumption'.
JMO seems astounded that there could be immigration discrimination based on an idea. What more proper basis for discerning the suitability of the candidate is there? If people are likely to hold an idea that is dangerous or subversive to the host country, the host country has an obligation to its citizens to not allow them entry.
I'm sure some neo-nazis could be cool people while you are talking to them. You might not even recognize their ideology. But if one is carrying around a copy of Mein Kampft ALL the time, and tells you everything in it is true, you might not want him around your kids. And additionally, you probably wouldn't want HIS kids around yours. Right? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
JMO seems astounded that there could be immigration discrimination based on an idea. |
In his credit (her?), he has taken my ideas on merit and not called me names or tried to lump my fear of backwards-rolling liberalism with neo-nazi groups or racists. I appreciate that. We disagree, and that is fine.
Because that is my fear. I'm a liberal dude. I believe in equality under the law for all. I believe in science, progress and fairness. That is what I want to defend. Not a white-Europe or Christian Canada. I want the liberal project to continue rolling forward. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| When I said 'backwards-thinking', I wasn't referring to JMO. Maybe that wasn't clear. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I understand Korea's immigration policy (to a large degree). They want people here for a specific purpose. And as far as I know, there is not much of a welfare system for immigrants (except those from NK, but they have their own problems aside from that).
I think Korea can go ahead and have ESLers galore, but what about in the absurd case-scenario that we were to reach 20 or 30% of the population? All hell would break loose on Korea's a$$ (from their perspective).
Countries should be careful who they admit. But then treat the ones they do in a fair manner. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ireland will not become Saudi Arabia because of muslim immigration. |
No, but your country will become more dangerous, less pleasant and home to hostile ghettoes full of embittered people who resent the country they live in, while making absolutely no attempt to integrate.
Of course, banning all Muslims is discriminatory, but since you know for sure that a large percentage believe in ideas contrary to your societal norms, and since it is impossible to discern between the 'moderates' and 'fundamentalists', it is the only option. Allowing large scale Muslim immigration will bring few benefits and very serious problems to your country. This is plainly obvious, looking at every European country where it has occured. When this is so clearly the case, what is the basis for allowing it to continue?
If you need immigrants, get them from elsewhere. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
If you need immigrants, get them from elsewhere. |
Exactly right. If the nation needs people, make damn sure you pick the best people. |
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patongpanda
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, in the UK we get a lot of immigration from people that actively hate our guts and all our society stands for. (Pakistanis, Somalis etc...).
I would love to have open immigration with nice countries like Thailand, and let all the hard working peeps like the Chinese come too.
Ever seen Chinese beggars/mugger/druggies/dolies in the UK?
I know I will get shouted at for being a racist  |
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