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flummuxt
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: In China it's 1984 |
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China is a little late, but is making up for lost time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/business/worldbusiness/12security.html?hp=&pagewanted=all
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August 12, 2007
In China, a High-Tech Plan to Track People
By KEITH BRADSHER
SHENZHEN, China, Aug. 9 � At least 20,000 police surveillance cameras are being installed along streets here in southern China and will soon be guided by sophisticated computer software from an American-financed company to recognize automatically the faces of police suspects and detect unusual activity.
Starting this month in a port neighborhood and then spreading across Shenzhen, a city of 12.4 million people, residency cards fitted with powerful computer chips programmed by the same company will be issued to most citizens.
Data on the chip will include not just the citizen�s name and address but also work history, educational background, religion, ethnicity, police record, medical insurance status and landlord�s phone number. Even personal reproductive history will be included, for enforcement of China�s controversial �one child� policy. Plans are being studied to add credit histories, subway travel payments and small purchases charged to the card.
Security experts describe China�s plans as the world�s largest effort to meld cutting-edge computer technology with police work to track the activities of a population and fight crime. But they say the technology can be used to violate civil rights.
The Chinese government has ordered all large cities to apply technology to police work and to issue high-tech residency cards to 150 million people who have moved to a city but not yet acquired permanent residency.... |
And then there's this little zinger:
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�We have a very good relationship with U.S. companies like I.B.M., Cisco, H.P., Dell,� said Robin Huang, the chief operating officer of China Public Security. �All of these U.S. companies work with us to build our system together....
China Public Security proudly displays in its boardroom a certificate from I.B.M. labeling it as a partner. But Mr. Huang said that China Public Security had developed its own computer programs in China and that its suppliers had sent equipment that was not specially tailored for law enforcement purposes.
� |
History repeats itself, indeed:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q4MsTidMFYc
Last edited by flummuxt on Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| It's my impression that it has been 1984 in China since 1949. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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From a gaming perspective, China deserves the co-operation of IBM, Cisco, HP, and Dell. The CCP since Deng played a losing hand very well.
From a human rights perspective, China doesn't deserve the time of day. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| It's my impression that it has been 1984 in China since 1949. |
Indeed. |
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just another day
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Living with the Alaskan Inuits!!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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the one bad thing about modern warfare and technology is that it is much easier to suppress a population.
at least back in the old days, people would get together and overthrow a king or emporer if they were bad. or poison them and escape unnoticed because they were protected by the people.
imagine how hard that is to do with bush or the chinese gov't now. big brother is too efficient.
but cindy sheehan is like luke skywalker now. "you're our only hope"  too bad china can't have a luke skywalker. |
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bonanzabucks
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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I read that article and it's amazing how complicit some of these Western companies are in dealing with the CCP. They know full well what they're getting involved with and what they're doing. I heard that Cisco made a fortune developing programs that the CCP uses to monitor and censor the internet. They are one of the few companies who invest in China that actually make some money from there.
As for Shenzhen itself, I've been there and there's no way that city is 12 million people. That would make it the second biggest city in China and just about as big as Seoul (not including suburbs)! I don't think it's grown that much since I was there. 5 million, sure. Maybe even 8 million, but more than 12? They do have a bad problem with crime, though.
And the Luke Skywalker comment...Sorry, it was Obi Wan who was the initially last hope. "Help me, Obi Won Kenobi...you're my only hope!" |
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just another day
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Living with the Alaskan Inuits!!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| bonanzabucks wrote: |
And the Luke Skywalker comment...Sorry, it was Obi Wan who was the initially last hope. "Help me, Obi Won Kenobi...you're my only hope!" |
oh yeah haha.
for some reason, i was thinking of the last death star run in the alleyway. |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: |
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20,000 cctv cameras is nothing, try the UK
shame i had to use the mail for a source, oh well...
with ID cards coming as well...
i'm not saying i would prefer to be Chinese btw... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Ahh, socialist governments and civil liberties go together like kimchi and ice cream.
I don't know how the Chinese are ever going to get rid of the CCP. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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How are we ever going to get rid of our own version of the CCP? Will elections be enough? Brown is no better than Blair on security issues. They just extended the time one can be held in detention.
Given the various Presidential Orders having come out recently putting Bush in charge of every level of government in a state of emergency, making anyone who even looks at his policies vis-a-vis the Middle East a criminal, the calls for war with Iran, and the many statements of "fears" of imminent attack from the dreaded rag heads, do you think we are not living in our own 1984?
Speaking of socialist governments and personal liberties:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/016492.php
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More U.S. cities will soon have more cameras watching more Americans.
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The Department of Homeland Security is funneling millions of dollars to local governments nationwide for purchasing high-tech video camera networks, accelerating the rise of a "surveillance society" in which the sense of freedom that stems from being anonymous in public will be lost, privacy rights advocates warn.
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Since 2003, the department has handed out some $23 billion in federal grants to local governments for equipment and training to help combat terrorism. Most of the money paid for emergency drills and upgrades to basic items, from radios to fences. But the department also has doled out millions on surveillance cameras, transforming city streets and parks into places under constant observation.
How much surveillance are we talking about here? Thanks to generous homeland security grants, St. Paul, Minn., will have 60 new cameras for its downtown; Madison, Wis., will have a 32-camera network; and Pittsburgh is adding 83 cameras to its downtown. Those are just from announcements regarding big cities over the last month.
And what about smaller towns? They're getting in on the fun, too.
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Recent examples include Liberty, Kan. (population 95), which accepted a federal grant to install a $5,000 G2 Sentinel camera in its park, and Scottsbluff, Neb. (population 14,000), where police used a $180,000 Homeland Security Department grant to purchase four closed-circuit digital cameras and two monitors, a system originally designed for Times Square in New York City.
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"Being able to collect this much data on people is going to be very powerful, and it opens people up for abuses of power," said Jennifer King, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley who studies privacy and technology. "The problem with explaining this scenario is that today it's a little futuristic. [A major loss of privacy] is a low risk today, but five years from now it will present a higher risk."
--Steve Benen |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Welcome back efl. I trust we will all stay on better footing this time. I'll give it my best. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Welcome back efl. I trust we will all stay on better footing this time. I'll give it my best. |
Whatever footing you refer to, making promises you have no real intention of keeping is a waste of your time. I'm not sure I see where it is necessary for you and I to "be on a good footing." |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| And all is well in the world. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Well, I'm back from two months of lecturing in Hong Kong, Malaysia, and China and visiting family in China and lo and behold I find a thread on the PSB (i.e. Public Security Bureau) just waiting for me to sink my proverbial teeth into.
bonanzabucks wrote:
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| They know full well what they're getting involved with and what they're doing |
How right you are: just ask Yahoo and Google, two supposedly progressive (re: liberal) companies, the former with Jerry Yang, an ABC, as co-owner. Note how stifled the outcry was when they agreed to limit their China reportage and email share.
It's all about the money for them. Michael Dell is reputedly another progressive, only I guess it only matters to him in the USA.
Actually, flummuxt, the most egregious aspect of this surveillance can be found in the hukou cards that all migrants--now numbering 4 of every 5 residents--must carry, which includes three times as much information as the old national cards like my wife has.
The PSB doesn't give a rip about crime since they're in on the act: what they care about is the uptick in open peasant rebellion in nearby Guangdong Province which is now spilling over into cutthroat Shenzen in the New Territories. The CCP is scared to death of this and well they should be: peasants constitute 75% of the general populace. Even Zhu Rongji, the former Premier under Jiang Zemin and a smart cookie who performed admirably, fretted about the growing income gap between urbal and rural workers.
BJWD wrote:
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Ahh, socialist governments and civil liberties go together like kimchi and ice cream.
I don't know how the Chinese are ever going to get rid of the CCP. |
Right on the ol' coconut, bruddah. That's the supreme irony of that past century: how the leftists have managed to squeeze liberty out of "the masses" they purport to uplift.
The Chinese will never rise up against the CCP out of principle again. They tried that in the late 1980's and we all know the result of that. No, if and when it comes, it will be from the inevitable rising tide of expectations, and having those expectations dashed.
As more have-nots toil for the corrupt haves (with their CCP guanxi), the more resentment there will be. Already cities like Beijing and Shanghai have a 90% shortfall in public housing for low income workers, something not widely reported in the West. Just a couple months ago, the central government mandated that construction companies reserve a certain portion of their building activities to narrow the gap. With the danwei's going belly up, with millions moving into the big cities without the advantages of official hukou residence and the support services it provides, with the iron rice bowl being smelted, it's only a matter of time before the workers demand what is theirs--a decent home and earnings.
And that, my friend, is when Mao's portrait will fall from the Gate of Heavenly Peace.
I only hope I live long enough to see it. I'll drink champagne when they raise the portrait of China's real leader--Sun Zhongshan (Yat-sen). |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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That's the supreme irony of that past century: how the leftists have managed to squeeze liberty out of "the masses" they purport to uplift.
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Come on, you're just jealous the Left didn't follow the shining example you Righties set. Work makes you free. How is that said in German? |
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