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HUGO CHAVEZ PULLS ANOTHER HUGO: NO TERM LIMITS
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stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: HUGO CHAVEZ PULLS ANOTHER HUGO: NO TERM LIMITS

Ya know, Chavez is more predictable than a 18 year-old high school student on his first date. Predicted long ago it would come down to this:

[

Quote:

Chavez proposes end to term limits
By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER, Associated Press

President Hugo Chavez called for radical changes to Venezuela's constitution Wednesday night, proposing reforms that would eliminate current limits on his re-election and extend presidential terms.

Chavez, speaking to the National Assembly, also proposed ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank, which would give him access to billions of dollars of foreign reserves. He also called for increasing the government's power to expropriate private property before getting a court's approval.

The self-styled revolutionary said presidential terms should be extended from six to seven years, though he denied he wants lifelong power as his opponents allege.

"I propose to the sovereign people the seven-year presidential term, the president can be re-elected immediately for a new term," Chavez said. "If someone says this is a project to entrench oneself in power. No, it's only a possibility, a possibility that depends on many variables."

Uh, yeah, variables like whether he can actually get away with it. He may claim to be a socialist but he's taken a page right out of Hitler's first year in power in 1933. Fortunately, he's too fat and lazy and stupid to do as much damage.

Where's a hit squad when you need one? Maybe the Venezuelan opposition can hire a rightwing paramilitary outfit from Columbia to do the deed. Or maybe we should just watch and wait and let the socialist enablers get what they deserve.

Meanwhile Chavez and Castro will keep on being kissing cousins.

Perhaps Sean Penn will become his PR man. That would be fitting.

Anyone want to venture a guess when enough will be enough for the citizenry there?

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: Re: HUGO CHAVEZ PULLS ANOTHER HUGO: NO TERM LIMITS

stevemcgarrett wrote:

Ya know, Chavez is more predictable than a 18 year-old high school student on his first date. Predicted long ago it would come down to this:

[

Quote:

Again I ask, where is your concern for the Constitutional rights of your fellow Americans? For the separation of powers in the US government? for justice for all, including a law-breaking president?

Has Chavez spied on his own people illegally?

Has Chavez voided the Bill of Rights?

Has Chavez claimed sole power over all levels of government, even the judiciary?

Has Chavez broken the law by refusing to enforce the laws passed?

Has Chavez imprisoned and tortured the innocent?

Has Chavez kidnapped and kept in indefinite detainment the innocent, or even the guilty?

Do you think Bush's order voiding the separation of powers in the case of a state of emergency is less dangerous than what Chavez is seeking? In actuality, it is far worse.

I don't follow Chavez. Enlighten me. Perhaps it is he and Bush that are kissing cousins.

What I truly want to see is equal outrage at the gross crimes committed by your own government. Then I would feel I was talking to an American, not a conservative.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:29 am Post subject:

Even with the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.

postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:31 am Post subject:

Quote:

Do you think Bush's order voiding the separation of powers in the case of a state of emergency is less dangerous than what Chavez is seeking? In actuality, it is far worse.

you gotta be a troll to write this crap........Yeah Bush just yesterday sought to eliminate term limits and now there is only Fox TV in the US..

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:51 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Even with the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.

Well said.

endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:59 am Post subject:

Well the term limits thing is wrong in my opinion, but American style democracy hasn't simply worked in Latin America. It just hasn't, so perhaps trying something else isn't the worst thing. Now what I do support is ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank. America should do the same thing with the Federal Reserves.

mack4289

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: Re: HUGO CHAVEZ PULLS ANOTHER HUGO: NO TERM LIMITS

keane wrote:

stevemcgarrett wrote:

Ya know, Chavez is more predictable than a 18 year-old high school student on his first date. Predicted long ago it would come down to this:

[

Quote:

So criticizing Chavez=supporting Bush? I don't understand this argument. Can't I criticize one without also having to say, "Yes, I know I criticized Bush/Chavez for some of the same things that Bush/Chavez has also done. No matter who did this, they're both wrong"?

Some highlights of the Chavez regime:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200605/chavez/2

"He opposed the war in Afghanistan and has flamboyantly cultivated relationships with members of the �axis of evil.� He was the first democratically elected head of state to visit Iraq in its pariah years between the Gulf and Iraq wars. He has invited Iran to open factories in Venezuela.

... Ch�vez, his intellectual supporters argue, has come much closer to hitting the mark, especially since the unveiling of his controversial new constitution in 1999.

Under the auspices of that document, the president can be recalled by a referendum, and the poor can launch privately owned cooperatives, subsidized by the state. Ch�vez has energetically promoted those aspects of the constitution that grant more power to �the people.� Many people on the street carry little blue books that contain the text of the new document. They read it on the subway and can cite its verses from memory. Seemingly every Chavista I met wanted to send me away with a copy. Even taxi drivers and maids have become constitutional boors.

The distribution of the blue books is a part of Ch�vez�s campaign to create what he calls a �protagonist� system�one in which the Venezuelan people have a direct, unmediated relationship with their leader. But there�s no mistaking the driving impulse behind the document itself: to concentrate power in the presidency while weakening those branches of government that might, in fact, mediate on the people�s behalf.

The constitution trimmed the legislative branch from a potentially obstreperous bicameral body to a more easily managed, one-chamber National Assembly, which can pass legislation into law with a single vote. It eliminated congressional oversight of the military, allowing Ch�vez to more easily stack the army�s top ranks with friendly generals. And it lifted an old provision that prevented the president from serving consecutive terms. Ch�vez now wants to further amend this rule, so that he can serve a third term. His most powerful political allies openly predict that he will remain in power until 2030.

..... When his opponents describe the prevailing atmosphere, they begin with the �Tasc�n List.� In 2003 and 2004, petitions circulated demanding referenda to recall the president�just the sort of people-empowering action enshrined as a right in the 1999 constitution. Soon thereafter, a list of the petitioners� names and national identification numbers mysteriously appeared on the Web site of a pro-Ch�vez congressman named Luis Tasc�n. The government began denying these petitioners passports, government contracts, and public welfare. Two years ago, in a statement that he later recanted, the health minister brashly declared that any ministry employee who signed the list would be fired, �because [the petition] is an act of terrorism.�

Media intimidation has begun as well. The Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, passed in 2004, allows the government to suspend stations that �promote, defend, or incite breaches of public order or that are contrary to the security of the nation.� The law has cowed the television networks, once devoted to dropping rhetorical napalm on the regime. Venevision, once a particularly notorious anti-Chavista bastion, is now known as the Disney Channel, for its increasing abundance of cartoons and bland newscasts.

By adding twelve new chairs to the twenty-seat supreme court, and packing them with loyalists, Ch�vez has begun to domesticate the courts as well. He proudly presented the new jurists like a trophy at the opening of the court�s 2006 session. With the president in attendance, the robed justices rose to their feet and began to sing a favored chant of their benefactor: Uh, ah, Ch�vez no se va� (�Uh, ah, Ch�vez is not leaving�).

.... Spending has not been designed to produce sustainable results, and there is little evidence of any coherent social policy. Cuban doctors can�t compensate for the country�s ramshackle public hospitals. According to the government�s own official data, infant mortality increased in 2003 and 2004, the last two measured years. Over the course of Ch�vez�s presidency, the percentage of the population earning less than $2 a day has risen from 43 percent to 53 percent.

Today, Chavez�s desultory government spending and overall economic approach resembles the populism of the Argentine Juan Per�n far more than any authentic socialist model. It is an incoherent mess, dependent on constant infusions of oil money, and is highly unlikely to lead to sustainable development for Venezuela. It is governed primarily by an age-old autocratic goal: the maintenance of personal power."

Chavez' rhetoric hasn't always matched his actions, though (to his credit):

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2007/01/08/070108ta_talk_surowiecki

"Even stranger, Ch�vez�s demonization of the U.S. has had little or no impact on business between the two countries. The U.S. continues to be Venezuela�s most important trading partner. Much of this business is oil: Venezuela is America�s fourth-largest supplier, and the U.S. is Venezuela�s largest customer. But the flow of trade goes both ways and across many sectors. The U.S. is the world�s biggest exporter to Venezuela, responsible for a full third of its imports..... And, even as Ch�vez�s rhetoric has become more extreme, the two countries have become more entwined: trade between the U.S. and Venezuela has risen thirty-six per cent in the past year.

....[Chavez] has done little to diversify the nation�s industrial base and lessen the economy�s dependence on oil, while his few tepid ventures into state ownership or co�peratives will have no meaningful economic impact. The result is that the ties between the U.S. and Venezuela have actually tightened. And there is only so much Ch�vez could do to loosen them without wrecking his economy; most Venezuelan oil is heavy with sulfur, and the refineries that are best equipped to handle it are in the U.S."

It would be ironic if Chavez' economic policies ultimately left Venzuela more dependent on America.

That New Yorker article was written in January of 2007. There has been nationalization of foreign oil projects in Venezuela since then http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/25/business/oil.php).

Last edited by mack4289 on Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:02 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Even with the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.

False. By what accounting do you arrive at this conclusion?

just another day

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Living with the Alaskan Inuits!!

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:06 am Post subject:

endo wrote:

Now what I do support is ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank. America should do the same thing with the Federal Reserves.

do you know how disastrous this would be?

people would be elected on their interest rate platform

" I promise to lower ur mortgage loan by 5%"

oh my gawd, its political enough as it is, it would get even more.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

Well the term limits thing is wrong in my opinion, but American style democracy hasn't simply worked in Latin America. It just hasn't, so perhaps trying something else isn't the worst thing.

* Clearly define "American style democracy"
* Where was this tried in Latin America
* How was it tried
* Who tried it
* Which nations failed and why

Also, Hugo is going to eventually declare himself president for life. I'd like you to

* provide modern examples of what this will likely do to the country
* how will this affect post-Chavez Venezuela

In addition

* Will Venezuela be able to avoid the pattern of left-wing military dictatorship turning into right-wing military dictatorship (China, NK, Russia). Why or why not? How is it different.

Lastly,

* If Bush were to behave like this, how would your answer be different?
* Do you believe that Hispanics are inferior and unable to manage a free country?
* Do you hold one set of values for one people and another set of (less valuable) values for another? Or, why would you accept as "ok" for them something that you would never accept for yourself?

Quote:

Now what I do support is ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank. America should do the same thing with the Federal Reserves.

You want monetary policy to be politicized? Are you serous? You would like George W. Bush making decisions on how much cash to print and when?

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: HUGO CHAVEZ PULLS ANOTHER HUGO: NO TERM LIMITS

mack4289 wrote:

I wasn't addressing my post to you, so perhaps in your case, yes, you can.

McGarrett is a vocal supporter of the Bush Administration and has spent a good deal of time of late tsk-tsking at China's and Chavez' actions while ignoring the same faults in his own nation. I am curious as to why.

If there are any policies or actions of the Bush administration that degrade our rights that he opposes, I am not aware of it. Rather than searching for and reading every post he has ever made, I thought I'd ask.

Quote:

Some highlights of the Chavez regime:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200605/chavez/2

"He opposed the war in Afghanistan and has flamboyantly cultivated relationships with members of the �axis of evil.� He was the first democratically elected head of state to visit Iraq in its pariah years between the Gulf and Iraq wars. He has invited Iran to open factories in Venezuela.

None of this is illegal and is exactly what the US has done over and over for the past hundred plus years. Are you ignoring or forgetting that Papa Bush and Reagan both funded and supported Bin Ladin and Saddam? (Conveniently overlooked by the conservative crowd.) I oppose the war in Afghanistan, now, too. It was about getting Bin Ladin, but now is about nation building. The same excesses are happening there as have happened in Iraq, by both sides. If it were still about stopping bin Ladin, I'd still support it.

Quote:

Under the auspices of that document, the president can be recalled by a referendum, and the poor can launch privately owned cooperatives, subsidized by the state.

Great! Sign me up!

Quote:

Ch�vez has energetically promoted those aspects of the constitution that grant more power to �the people.� Many people on the street carry little blue books that contain the text of the new document. They read it on the subway and can cite its verses from memory. Seemingly every Chavista I met wanted to send me away with a copy. Even taxi drivers and maids have become constitutional boors.

You're right. They're all doomed. they should all go commit Hari Kiri and get it over with. Wink

Are the Venezuelan Chavistas less frightening than the ignorant and belligerent Bushies? Or less brainwashed?

Quote:

The constitution trimmed the legislative branch from a potentially obstreperous bicameral body to a more easily managed, one-chamber National Assembly, which can pass legislation into law with a single vote. It eliminated congressional oversight of the military, allowing Ch�vez to more easily stack the army�s top ranks with friendly generals.

Agree. This is bad. Bush is doing the same, even without a change to the Constitution. At least Chavez changed their C to make it OK. How'd he get it approved? The problem I have with Bush is that he doesn't even bother with changing it, he just ignores it. And us.

Quote:

And it lifted an old provision that prevented the president from serving consecutive terms. Ch�vez now wants to further amend this rule, so that he can serve a third term. His most powerful political allies openly predict that he will remain in power until 2030.

But he's doing it within the law. What are you trying to do? Make Bush look worse? "Even Chavez follows the law, but not Bush," seems to be your theme. Wink

Yes, yes, yes. Chavez is setting himself up for unlimited throne-sitting. I get it. Bush has done the same but by breaking the law, bending the law, or just creating new "law." Why does this not matter to you?

Quote:

..... When his opponents describe the prevailing atmosphere, they begin with the �Tasc�n List.� In 2003 and 2004, petitions circulated demanding referenda to recall the president�just the sort of people-empowering action enshrined as a right in the 1999 constitution. Soon thereafter, a list of the petitioners� names and national identification numbers mysteriously appeared on the Web site of a pro-Ch�vez congressman named Luis Tasc�n. The government began denying these petitioners passports, government contracts, and public welfare. Two years ago, in a statement that he later recanted, the health minister brashly declared that any ministry employee who signed the list would be fired, �because [the petition] is an act of terrorism.�

Terrible. Agreed. Bush has done the same. Plame. Whistle blowers. He has the audacity to bring to trial whistle blowers and leakers of his illegal activities. It is exactly the same.

Quote:

Media intimidation has begun as well. The Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, passed in 2004, allows the government to suspend stations that �promote, defend, or incite breaches of public order or that are contrary to the security of the nation.� The law has cowed the television networks, once devoted to dropping rhetorical napalm on the regime. Venevision, once a particularly notorious anti-Chavista bastion, is now known as the Disney Channel, for its increasing abundance of cartoons and bland newscasts.

Bush has done the same through jailing media, putting outright propaganda into the media, and accusing any who disagree with him of being cowards, in favor of terrorists and unpatriotic.

Why do you not care about this?

Quote:

By adding twelve new chairs to the twenty-seat supreme court, and packing them with loyalists, Ch�vez has begun to domesticate the courts as well.

And Bush has not stacked the courts? I can't believe you bothered to post this one!

All of this and not one illegal act save the intimidation mentioned above. Virtually all of Bush's offenses are illegal.

Why do you not care about this?

Quote:

.... Spending has not been designed to produce sustainable results, and there is little evidence of any coherent social policy.

I'm telling you, these two were separated at birth.

Enough, enough... I'm getting both queasy and muscle cramps from laughing at the same time.

Last edited by keane on Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:36 am; edited 2 times in total

endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:30 am Post subject:

just another day wrote:

endo wrote:

Now what I do support is ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank. America should do the same thing with the Federal Reserves.

Yeah but who's making the majority of the money off the Federal Reserve system in the States?

Wealthy individuals who have an interest in continuing and expanding the countries debt.

The Federal Reserves should not be a private coorporation and neither should it be a political institution.

It should be an a-political institution sort of like the Supreme Court. I know bad example, but something that should act in the best interests of the tax payers by working to reduce the overall debt, not expand it.

just another day

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Living with the Alaskan Inuits!!

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:39 am Post subject:

endo wrote:

just another day wrote:

endo wrote:

Now what I do support is ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank. America should do the same thing with the Federal Reserves.

its really a bad idea. markets will not have faith in a political imbecile to manage the federal reserve policy efficiently.

and yes, markets rally when poor people make money and spend it on consumer products and pay off debt, believe it or not. Rolling Eyes

as long as the US is WILLING to riot if the gap between the rich and poor become wider, then the markets will see that social unrest is a bad thing. if the US doesn't care about the gap between the rich and the poor, and no social unrest happens, well, somethings wrong with the country to begin with.

endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:45 am Post subject:

Who's making the money off the Federal Reserve system? Who are the creditors? Who makes money when new currency is produced?

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:08 am Post subject:

just another day wrote:

endo wrote:

just another day wrote:

endo wrote:

Now what I do support is ending the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank. America should do the same thing with the Federal Reserves.

its really a bad idea. markets will not have faith in a political imbecile to manage the federal reserve policy efficiently.

There was no federal reserve nor income tax until the past century. The great depression happened after the creation of the fed and the imposition of income tax. Those two things have allowed the monster out of the bag. They have led to unlimited government. The best argument for the end of both is the sovereignty of the American people over their government, rather than the current sorry state of affairs.

From Wiki:

Quote:

Frank Vanderlip wrote in his 1935 autobiography From Farmboy to Financier :

Quote:

I was as secretive, indeed I was as furtive as any conspirator. Discovery, we knew, simply must not happen, or else all our time and effort would have been wasted. If it were to be exposed that our particular group had got together and written a banking bill, that bill would have no chance whatever of passage by Congress�I do not feel it is any exaggeration to speak of our secret expedition to Jekyll Island as the occasion of the actual conception of what eventually became the Federal Reserve System.�

Why am I not surprised?

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