|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
 |
|
JMO"]
| Quote: |
| Ok you condone torture to get information(ignoring the fact that torture is not that effective for getting real info). |
Not the iron maiden.
As for keeping them sleepy and hungry and sensory deprivation . You don't know how effective they are.
| Quote: |
You cannot define what a supporter/sympathizer of the 'enemy' is but you support locking them up in secret prisons without trial or charge. |
Khalid Sheik Mohammad is in a secret prison. Let 'em go?
but you can know it when you see it.
[quote]
There are whole oceans of vagueness here just waiting for innocent people to get drowned in.
/quote]
Innocent people die when Bathists , KHomei supporters or Al Qaedists are allowed to operate. Many more.
There was no real evidence against Bin Laden and you think the US was right to let him go.
Note that my opinion is in line with Bill Clintons' own national security adviser who wanted Saudi Arabia to execute Bin Laden.
and you would let the mideasterners the US got in Afghanistan go free.
No more failed policy.
| Quote: |
Oh well 9-11, 9-11, 9-11, 9-11...fear, fear, fear....[ |
If the US had the Patriot act after the first world trade center attacksand had taken Bin Laden when it had the chance then 9-11 would not have happened.
Not fear , it is realizing that the previous policy wasn't up to dealing with the terror problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Padilla case is important whether or not he is guilty of anything. It is important because it shows how torture dehumanizes and traumatizes. It shows how people will allow fear to cause them to stoop to what they would never have accepted previously. The handling of the case, and Padilla, show just how little of America is left in America.
http://www.antiwar.com/bock/?articleid=11466
| Quote: |
As Yale professor Jack Balkin put it:
"It�s important to remember that the Bush Administration did everything it could to deny Padilla even the basic right of habeas corpus. It argued that courts had no power to second guess the president�s determination that Padilla was an enemy of the United States and could be held in solitary confinement indefinitely. It argued that no one had the right to contact Padilla and that no one had the right to know what the government was doing to him. It argued that courts should defer to the president�s views about who was dangerous and who was not � that once the president declared a person an enemy, that person had all the process that was due them and courts should respect that determination.
"It argued, in short, that the president always knows best. If the president had his way, the government, on the basis of information that never had to be tested before any neutral magistrate, could pluck any citizen off the streets, throw them in a military prison, and proceed to drive them insane.
"Those are the powers that the Bush Administration sought. I will not mince words: They are the powers of a dictator in an authoritarian regime. They are the powers of the old Soviet Union, of the military junta in Argentina during the time of the disappeared." |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| US is still one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dome Vans
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| US is still one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world. |
That is one the most laughable lines I've heard in a while. Patriotism is blinding the citizens to what the country is trying to achieve. Americans should try getting passport and leave their shores to see what people really think of them. It's no good giving them the sanitised version that everyone should love them because they freers of people and bringer of democracy. Tell American people the truth and let them decide.
America has a system worse than apartheid in practice, but you never hear about it because it is 'the land of free'. Tell that to the black people who get sent down for minimal crimes and then lose the right to vote. Where does their representation go when they get out? It's only used to get Bush his extra votes so he can weasel his way in. CORRUPT! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just for the record:
Taking out anyone, who goes on camera for the record calling for american citizens to be killed anywhere and everywhere, with a cruise missle. FINE! No justice system, no legalistic doublespeak required.
Subverting the American constitution to sow the seeds of fear and basically selling out the soul of America to combat a bunch of cave dwelling, uneducated morons, UNACCEPTABLE.
Seriously. Doesn't it just make you sick to think of what america has become, what the world has come to think of you, just because a group of uneducated, religious zealots were able to pull of one spectacular attack against you?
I'll say it again. The America I knew and loved would have F@cked over the ones responsible, subtly but firmed warned anyone and everyone not to try and pull thie same shit again, and would have left it at that.
Trite and silly, but would John Wayne have gone out and killed every Indian he could find cause one injun killed a member of his family? Would he have put the whole town under martial law until it was gauranteed another injun would never kill another white again?
The lure of America, it's soul, and why everyone, no matter what they say infront of a camera, wants to be there is because of the ideals set forth by it's forefathers. And it sickens me how many of you are willing to throw that away because of a few religious camel f@cking panty wastes. ( referring specifically and ONLY to Al Qaeda.)
The world does'n't hate the United States. What you see as hatred of the United States is merely the world's supreme disappointment when you fail to live up to your own standards which, no matter what they say, every other country in the world respects and admires.
I'm drunk and upset. Forgive my horrible punctuation and run on sentences. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
| Quote: |
also Khomeni came to power in Iran. Would the US not be better off today if the US had kidnapped or ( killed him) before he came to power and thrown him in secret prison somewhere ? |
Ironically it was the Americans (and the British) that overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammed Mosaddeq and installed the Shah which directly lead to the Iranian revolution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dome Vans wrote: |
| Quote: |
| US is still one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world. |
That is one the most laughable lines I've heard in a while. Patriotism is blinding the citizens to what the country is trying to achieve. Americans should try getting passport and leave their shores to see what people really think of them. It's no good giving them the sanitised version that everyone should love them because they freers of people and bringer of democracy. Tell American people the truth and let them decide.
America has a system worse than apartheid in practice, but you never hear about it because it is 'the land of free'. Tell that to the black people who get sent down for minimal crimes and then lose the right to vote. Where does their representation go when they get out? It's only used to get Bush his extra votes so he can weasel his way in. CORRUPT! |
Really show otherwise who is so much better especially during war time.
Sorry about the mistreatment of African Americans but the US does more than most to fix its social problems. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="yawarakaijin"]Just for the record:
Taking out anyone, who goes on camera for the record calling for american citizens to be killed anywhere and everywhere, with a cruise missle. FINE! No justice system, no legalistic doublespeak required.
| Quote: |
Subverting the American constitution to sow the seeds of fear and basically selling out the soul of America to combat a bunch of cave dwelling, uneducated morons, UNACCEPTABLE. |
US system can't handle AQ. It is a fact.
| Quote: |
Seriously. Doesn't it just make you sick to think of what america has become, what the world has come to think of you, just because a group of uneducated, religious zealots were able to pull of one spectacular attack against you? |
Ameirca acts pretty good during war time in fact the US did much worse during other wars.
| Quote: |
I'll say it again. The America I knew and loved would have F@cked over the ones responsible, subtly but firmed warned anyone and everyone not to try and pull thie same *beep* again, and would have left it at that. |
Really tell how to do it.
| Quote: |
The world does'n't hate the United States. What you see as hatred of the United States is merely the world's supreme disappointment when you fail to live up to your own standards which, no matter what they say, every other country in the world respects and admires. |
been hated since the end of the cold war. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We are never going to agree in this. You think it is ok to torture prisoners. The effectiveness of torture is doubtful as people will literally say anything to make you stop.
Here is an interesting article on the subject.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14924664/site/newsweek/
Even if it was effective it would still be wrong to use. It is not ok to torture prisoners.
Also you seem to think it is ok to base your justice system on a "we'll know it when we see it" idea. This gives the government the opportunity to put whoever they want in prison.
You are also ok with putting these people in secret prisons without trial or charge because they are 'supporters/sympathizers' of the enemy even though you cannot define what that is. Once again presumably anybody the government wants to. You have a circle here and once someones gets into that circle they are guilty.
You seem to be unable to see the possibility of abuse in this system.
And your reason for this is you think if they had imprisoned Bin Laden this would have stopped 9-11 even though you do not know this to be true. Even if it is true you seemed prepared to take away the rights of thousands of people(and in the future many more) because of this. Insane and only a matter of time before its used in America and the terms are just as vague as to who' guilty and who isn't. Hopefully you aren't one of the people taken in the dead of the night because of 'national security'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| arjuna wrote: |
The Iraqi "insurgents" are fighting the invaders and occupiers of their homeland. Why should any sane person not support them?
|
The insurgents are fighting war against Iraq. The Americans are in the middle of a caveman hate fest. Most of the large attacks aren't directed at the US forces but at the group of people who have a slightly different god.
I guess you can support religious people killing religious people.. I'm mildly in favor of that. But if you fancy yourself "left" and concerned about the day to day life of individual Iraqi's you likely won't find yourself supporting the insurgents and more likely wanting the Americans to succeed.
Unless something is clouding your judgment... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Padilla is a self admitted traitor. The evidence against him was overwhelming - it only took the jury a few hours to convict. A mostly black or Hispanic jury at that.
He was kep in very close confinement - I have no problem with that. Except for being interrogated and incarcerated there is no evidence of torture,
For what he was convicted of he can get a maximum of 15 years, here's served 3.5 give him another 11.5. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="JMO"]
| Quote: |
| We are never going to agree in this. You think it is ok to torture prisoners. The effectiveness of torture is doubtful as people will literally say anything to make you stop. |
for the record not the Iron maiden and stuff like that but in general I would not tie the hands of the those responsible for security.
I wonder what about keeping them sleepy and sensory deprivation ?
| Quote: |
Bush administration officials are trying to redefine the Geneva Conventions, which bans �cruel practices,� to allow seven different procedures: 1) induced hypothermia, 2) long periods of forced standing, 3) sleep deprivation, 4) the �attention grab� (forcefully seizing the suspect�s shirt), 5) the �attention slap,� 6) |
The US ought to be allowed to do such.
I will read it.
| Quote: |
Even if it was effective it would still be wrong to use. It is not ok to torture prisoners.
|
against AQ?
| Quote: |
Also you seem to think it is ok to base your justice system on a "we'll know it when we see it" idea. This gives the government the opportunity to put whoever they want in prison. |
Well , I you are right I ought to be more specific . I think it was great what was done when the CIA got that cleric in Italy and sent him to Egypt.
| Quote: |
You are also ok with putting these people in secret prisons without trial or charge because they are 'supporters/sympathizers' of the enemy even though you cannot define what that is. Once again presumably anybody the government wants to. You have a circle here and once someones gets into that circle they are guilty. |
Well lets start by any one who calls for holy war against the US is now a target for assassination.
The US needs to remove the ban on assassination and engage in targeted killings .
As I said when the CIA got that Italian cleric , that was a great move. the US needs to do a lot more than that.
| Quote: |
Italy indicts CIA agents in abduction of terror suspects
26 Americans, many in CIA, indicted over seizing of Egyptian
By Ian Fisher
Published: February 16, 2007
ROME: An Italian judge ordered the first trial involving the U.S. program of kidnapping terror suspects on foreign soil, indicting 26 Americans Friday, most of them CIA agents, and also Italy's former top spy.
The indictments concerned the alleged kidnapping of a radical Egyptian cleric, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, who disappeared near his mosque in Milan on Feb. 17, 2003. The cleric, known as Abu Omar, was freed this week from jail in Egypt, where he says he was taken and then tortured.
Despite the indictment, issued by a judge in Milan, it is unlikely that any of the Americans will ever stand trial here. |
| Quote: |
| You seem to be unable to see the possibility of abuse in this system. |
I see it, on the other hand the US has never had an enemy like the one it faces now.
| Quote: |
And your reason for this is you think if they had imprisoned Bin Laden this would have stopped 9-11 even though you do not know this to be true. |
IT is the opinion of the US govt.
| Quote: |
Had we been able to roll up bin Laden then, it would have made a significant difference," said a U.S. government official with responsibilities, then and now, in counter-terrorism. "We probably never would have seen a September 11th. We would still have had networks of Sunni Islamic extremists of the sort we're dealing with here, and there would still have been terrorist attacks fomented by those folks. But there would not have been as many resources devoted to their activities, and there would not have been a single voice that so effectively articulated grievances and won support for violence. |
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20011003/ai_n10738274/print
| Quote: |
Even if it is true you seemed prepared to take away the rights of thousands of people(and in the future many more) because of this. Insane and only a matter of time before its used in America and the terms are just as vague as to who' guilty and who isn't. Hopefully you aren't one of the people taken in the dead of the night because of 'national security' |
Were not talking about it being used in the US.
At the same time you would have let Bin Laden go and you would have let Khomeni go . Many lives would have been saved.
You think the US would not be better off today if those two were taken out.
To you the US govt is a bigger enemy than AQ.
I will say it again
MO the policy that the US had in place was not enough get Bin Laden or Khomeni and failing to do that prevented the US from bringing down its biggest enemies.
It was a failure. It would be stupid to continue what failed. and it is unreasonable to ask / demand that the US do so.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
| The Iraqi "insurgents" are fighting the invaders and occupiers of their homeland. Why should any sane person not support them? |
The insurgents are fighting war against Iraq. The Americans are in the middle of a caveman hate fest. Most of the large attacks aren't directed at the US forces but at the group of people who have a slightly different god. |
No one has a monopoly on hate. The condition for strife was intentionally created by the invaders. And, most importantly, the mofos (Americans and British) initiated the "civil war" through covert activities, and are probably continuing to support the different groups. This kind of thing has been standard behavior of the Empire around the world for a long time already. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| arjuna wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
| The Iraqi "insurgents" are fighting the invaders and occupiers of their homeland. Why should any sane person not support them? |
The insurgents are fighting war against Iraq. The Americans are in the middle of a caveman hate fest. Most of the large attacks aren't directed at the US forces but at the group of people who have a slightly different god. |
No one has a monopoly on hate. The condition for strife was intentionally created by the invaders. And, most importantly, the mofos (Americans and British) initiated the "civil war" through covert activities, and are probably continuing to support the different groups. This kind of thing has been standard behavior of the Empire around the world for a long time already. |
Where is the proof?
By the way it is no coincidence that the nations of the world with the worst human rights records are also enemies of the US. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
| And, most importantly, the mofos (Americans and British) initiated the "civil war" through covert activities, and are probably continuing to support the different groups. This kind of thing has been standard behavior of the Empire around the world for a long time already. |
Where is the proof? |
You should put your money where your mouth is and join the CIA or something. That would also be the quickest way for you to learn the truth. Actually, I think that would be the only way for you to learn the truth.
Edit: Emphasis added.
Last edited by arjuna on Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
