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Kimchi Cha Cha
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| denistron wrote: |
In regards to Mack's post,
I can see the what you mean from the quote. It can be a difference in prioritizing our morals. But if Loyalty is higher than honesty, how can we explain the staggering number of married men who cheat on their spouses at the numerous two barber pole places that I can see on every side street. Where is the loyalty? |
Good point. Though, I guess I would surmise that the reason that they married in the first place was out of loyalty to their parents. They didn't love their spouse but married through obligation. In this sense it's almost as if there's a pact between the two, they don't love each other however it's advantageous for both of them to remain married, procreate and give the illusion of being a happily married couple which society expects of them. Privately they can live their own life and find other lovers, providing it does not affect the marriage and their illusion of the perfect Korean family.
I'd imagine the average Korean man has a much higher sense of loyalty towards his parents, and even his children, than his wife; especially so if the whole marriage is a fraud. So, in his mind (and probably hers) they see nothing wrong with finding other sexual partners just as long as the family remains together.
Just my two cents, though. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Good point. Though, I guess I would surmise that the reason that they married in the first place was out of loyalty to their parents. |
I think this has a lot to do with the idea of marriage in Korea. Providing financially for your wife is the goal. A man is supposed to be the financial provider. That is what makes a good husband in Korean society but I think that some women these days have a different prospective. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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As for Korean reputation, trust me on this, it is far more reputable than you would like us to believe. Just read what eminent scholars, businessman, and others had to say about Korea.
Would it possible for Korea, who had GNP per capital that was similar to India in 1960's, rise to become the top 12 countries in terms of economic in less than 50 years if Korea was, as you have said, "That is good old fashioned dishonesty. And it runs to the very core of this society" |
One of the stupidest things I have every heard. Many dishonest men have becoming rich Al Capone, Bill Gates, John F. Kennedy Sr., etc. |
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butlerian
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| This thread is completely absurd and inappropriate. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Would it possible for Korea, who had GNP per capital that was similar to India in 1960's, rise to become the top 12 countries in terms of economic in less than 50 years if Korea was, as you have said, "That is good old fashioned dishonesty. And it runs to the very core of this society" |
Well, when a country does not actually have to invest in its own defense, then it does have a surplus of money to throw at the economy.........
dmbfan |
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nateium
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| butlerian wrote: |
| This thread is completely absurd and inappropriate. |
Some of the post are, but the question is valid because cultures do have relative values.
As outsiders, some discussion is warranted to understand the differences. Korean society has morals, and so dowestern societies, but it's obvious to anyone who has lived here for a while that there are major differences in the thinking and manifestation of ethical ideals.
Korean society does appear to be dishonest. I don't think that is the case however; it's much more complicated than that. |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| So how does the rash of fake degree scandals fit into this? (http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2879059) What's surprising to me is that these universities didn't verify degrees in the first place, especially degrees that people claimed to have gotten from foreign universities. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that this has a lot to do with Korea being a reactionary society and not a society that tends to anticipate problems. They wait until a problem occurs before they fix it instead of trying to prevent it. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| I think that this has a lot to do with Korea being a reactionary society and not a society that tends to anticipate problems. They wait until a problem occurs before they fix it instead of trying to prevent it. |
I don't know too many countries who are well prepared for problems. Look at the mess in the UK with that 11 year-old kid being shot and everyone trying to slam the gate shut on violence and illegal guns now that the horse has bolted. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| Korean society does appear to be dishonest. I don't think that is the case however; it's much more complicated than that. |
That is pretty much the best obsevation made in this thread....unfortunately too many people stopped at reaction one: they are dishonest and just failed to go beyond the surface.
I mean, the guy here that is not telling you he dislikes you in front of others is using what we commonly call a white lie back home. Now, most people accept white lies as part of society and would not call our home countries societies of liars or dishonest. This is just one example and it is far more complex than this as was pointed out earlier.
As for this: I think that this has a lot to do with Korea being a reactionary society and not a society that tends to anticipate problems. They wait until a problem occurs before they fix it instead of trying to prevent it.
Jags made a fine point that refutes this. Others could be used like say infrastructures failing, look at the bridge that fell down in Minnesota or in Quebec those were things that Canada and the US certainly did not prepare for even thought they knew infrastructures were getting old and were in need or repairs....most societies seem to deal with most problems as they arise and not much before because investing for future problems is usually a tough sell for any political party...the populace simply does not want to pay for something that might happen... |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| That is pretty much the best obsevation made in this thread....unfortunately too many people stopped at reaction one: they are dishonest and just failed to go beyond the surface. |
Some posters did attempt to understand and I think most people know about the culture of saving face in Korea. Just because something can be explained does not necessarily make it acceptable.
I am not going to judge whether the way in which Koreans lie is acceptable or not but just chalking everything up to cultural relativism is academic b.s. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Korean society does appear to be dishonest. I don't think that is the case however; it's much more complicated than that. |
That is pretty much the best obsevation made in this thread....unfortunately too many people stopped at reaction one: they are dishonest and just failed to go beyond the surface.
I mean, the guy here that is not telling you he dislikes you in front of others is using what we commonly call a white lie back home. Now, most people accept white lies as part of society and would not call our home countries societies of liars or dishonest. This is just one example and it is far more complex than this as was pointed out earlier.
As for this: I think that this has a lot to do with Korea being a reactionary society and not a society that tends to anticipate problems. They wait until a problem occurs before they fix it instead of trying to prevent it.
Jags made a fine point that refutes this. Others could be used like say infrastructures failing, look at the bridge that fell down in Minnesota or in Quebec those were things that Canada and the US certainly did not prepare for even thought they knew infrastructures were getting old and were in need or repairs....most societies seem to deal with most problems as they arise and not much before because investing for future problems is usually a tough sell for any political party...the populace simply does not want to pay for something that might happen... |
Cheers, and some still call me an unbalanced hater! |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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| Would it possible for Korea, who had GNP per capital that was similar to India in 1960's, rise to become the top 12 countries in terms of economic in less than 50 years if Korea was, as you have said, "That is good old fashioned dishonesty. And it runs to the very core of this society" |
Well, when a country does not actually have to invest in its own defense, then it does have a surplus of money to throw at the economy.........
dmbfan |
And just who do you think pays for the mandatory military service? Who pays for the training, the food, the accomodations, the salary for soliders, the equipment... Remember almost all Korean men must go through this...that's a lot of people and a lot of money. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I mean, the guy here that is not telling you he dislikes you in front of others is using what we commonly call a white lie back home. Now, most people accept white lies as part of society and would not call our home countries societies of liars or dishonest. This is just one example and it is far more complex than this as was pointed out earlier. |
Or maybe Homer is looking for causation where it does not exist. Maybe you should read some books on by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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Jzer..I am simply saying tyat I disagree with the judgement of Korea is a society of liars or dishonest.
I think people need to stop and try and understand certain social behaviors before passing judgement. Do Korean people lie? Of course they do! But that is a far cry from saying that because they do in certain situations (ex: not telling what they actually think of you in a public setting) it does not mean that Koreans are dishonest. There is the question of why they do this and where it comes from.
This is not about cultural relativism. It is about trying to understand before judging someone or something based on some superficial observation.
I do agree that because something can be explained it does not wash it and make it acceptable. That is certainly true. Furthermore, we all have our views, our perspectives and our limits. This is something that has to be remembered. We (westerners here) tend to judge things through our cultural prism which is colored with the values we were raised in. These are not universal values but sometimes westerners think they are. Somethings are indeed just wrong (ex: torture....murder and so on) but others are not necessarily wrong depending on what standpoint you view them from.
Lets say a co-worker here does not tell you they think you are an obnoxious bugger to your face but rather pretend they like you. Where does that come from? To you it is a lie and it wrong. To this person it is preserving social harmony and avoiding public conflict or possible loss of face. To this person this is not lying at all. This is not 'unaceptable' this is just the way things are done in certain places. We live in a collectivist society (Korea) that has different (read no better or worse) values than those of our more individualistic societies. This leads to frustrations and irrtation for us sometimes because difference is always a shock. We just have to be careful not to fall into the easy blame or judgement trap and to try to look beyond that and to reach an understanding of why things are the way they are. This avoids sweeping judgements that tend to lose all credibility. |
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