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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Elton was funny back in the 80s and early 90s. So were Rik Mayal and Adrrian Edmondson. It was called 'alternative comedy' and it was novel at that time. You've also got to take into account the political climate of that era. It's not so funny now though, but for a generation of Brits, it was bloody funny. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Ben Elton was funny back in the 80s and early 90s. So were Rik Mayal and Adrrian Edmondson. It was called 'alternative comedy' and it was novel at that time. You've also got to take into account the political climate of that era. It's not so funny now though, but for a generation of Brits, it was bloody funny. |
Alternative comedy..living in my fall out shelter I had never heard about this wondrous concept..please tell me more...
What Rik Mayal and Adrian Edmondson made back then is stil funny. Ben Elton(the standup) was never funny.
| Quote: |
| You've also got to take into account the political climate of that era. It's not so funny now though, but for a generation of Brits, it was bloody funny |
mmm Spitting Image,...still funny, Yes minister..still funny(very very funny), the young ones..still funny.
Good comedy lasts...maybe not as funny as originally but you can still recognise it. Elton like Goodwin was just not good at what he was doing.
The fact that either of these people were popular in their day does not mean that they were any good or that we don't get them now as the political climate changed or the background for their jokes has changed.
Sometimes people were just not very good to begin with.
I'm sure you can think of examples of currently popular comedians who aren't all that good. In 20 years time when my kids also think they arent that good, is it because they havn't stood the test of time, or because they(my kids..hopefully) have taste. I'll go with the latter. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
Alternative comedy..living in my fall out shelter I had never heard about this wondrous concept..please tell me more...
What Rik Mayal and Adrian Edmondson made back then is stil funny. Ben Elton(the standup) was never funny. |
Alternative Comedy as wiki-ed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_comedy
I'm not going to argue with you about who is and who is not funny. It's all subjective and people's humour differs. I used to find it incredulous that people considered Kenny Everett funny. In my late teens I watched videos that my gran had recorded in the early 80s, when he'd had a TV show. I thought it was absolute crap. It seemed zany and over the top and even sexist. Then in recent times I watched him again - and I realised there was so much I had missed. He was very sharp and bloody bloody funny, but in my late teens I wasn't able to understand it. Same with the Carry On films. I thought they were absolute shyte. But recently I saw a few on the TV in the early hours, and while I still don't find them earth shattering - I realise that in parts they are clever in ways I initially failed to understand, and I appreciate the skill of the actor comedians much more.
Some comedy will not stand the test of time because the humour doesn't rely on timeless unversal themes. It's too specific to a certain context and time. That doesn't mean that it's any less clever or funny - it just means it has a sell by date. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
Alternative comedy..living in my fall out shelter I had never heard about this wondrous concept..please tell me more...
What Rik Mayal and Adrian Edmondson made back then is stil funny. Ben Elton(the standup) was never funny. |
Alternative Comedy as wiki-ed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_comedy
I'm not going to argue with you about who is and who is not funny. It's all subjective and people's humour differs. I used to find it incredulous that people considered Kenny Everett funny. In my late teens I watched videos that my gran had recorded in the early 80s, when he'd had a TV show. I thought it was absolute crap. It seemed zany and over the top and even sexist. Then in recent times I watched him again - and I realised there was so much I had missed. He was very sharp and bloody bloody funny, but in my late teens I wasn't able to understand it. Same with the Carry On films. I thought they were absolute shyte. But recently I saw a few on the TV in the early hours, and while I still don't find them earth shattering - I realise that in parts they are clever in ways I initially failed to understand, and I appreciate the skill of the actor comedians much more.
Some comedy will not stand the test of time because the humour doesn't rely on timeless unversal themes. It's too specific to a certain context and time. That doesn't mean that it's any less clever or funny - it just means it has a sell by date. |
Fair enough. I guess my point is that just because something was made a while ago and was popular then doesn't mean it was any good. Some things are popular and just not good. But that is subjective obviously.
I like the Carry On films as well, great summer afternoon movies. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
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 I just had this conversation (tried to recreate it word for word) with my mum:
Me: Did you think Ben Elton was funny in the 80s?
Mum: Yes, when he was talking about Thatcher and all that, yes he was funny, but he gets a bit irritating now [I think here she's refering to interviews she's seen him do in recent years].
Me: Well there's this guy on the internet who says Ben Elton wasn't funny.
Mum: Of course he was funny. How old is this guy?
Me: 23.
Mum: Then he was only about 2 years old in the 80s! What would he know!?! |
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Are they the lemmings
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Location: Not here anymore. JongnoGuru was the only thing that kept me here.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You've also got to take into account the political climate of that era. |
A year or so ago, I read the Adrian Mole diaries for the first time since the books and TV series were first popular. I'd been living in the proverbial cave since then, and didn't know there were sequels after the first two.
Anyway, I was a bit too young first time round to notice that the first two diaries were a scathing report on Thatcher's Britain. Much more enjoyable once I could detect the subcontext.
Another show that's aged remarkably well: Filthy, Rich & Catflap. It's on YouTube if you're interested. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Big Bird (and her old dear! ) is right, all comedy is contextual. I was a politically aware teenager in the 1980s living in a mining community. All you had in all the newspapers and the media was everyone praising the demagouge Thatcher, apartheid South Africa and anyone who dared speak against it was a communist who should go and live in the Soviet Union if they didn't like it.
Ben Elton wasn't funny, he was a breath of fresh air! He and channel 4 (it is a crying shame how this channl has gone down the pan to cater for yob culture) were the only media outlet that the public took any notice of where they spoke out against the shower of shit that was leading our country.
You didn't laugh at Ben Elton, you wen't 'you tell 'em mate' In my opinion Ben Elton who is now a part of the media establishment didn't really believe what he was saying but he was bright enough to know that there was a vacuum in the market he could fill. Which he did with great aplomb. He bcame part of the derised 'loony left' (Which included Ken
Livingstone, Derek Hatton, Bernie Grant, Diane Abbott, Arthur Scargill,
Tony Benn etc)
Comedians in those days were the likes of Jim Davidson: 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4IXTeSxebg8
As for Ken Goodwin, he is being subtle and most of you can't see it. He is playing the persona of an imbecile and he doesn't know why he is being funny. Hence 'why are you laughing'
Anyone who didn't find the joke
'A man was pulling a piece of string and I asked why ar you pulling that piece of string?'
'You wanna try pushing it'
'A man was walking his dog and it was wearing black boots and I asked why is your dog wearing black boots?'
'Cos his brown ones are being mended!' |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I just had this conversation (tried to recreate it word for word) with my mum:
Me: Did you think Ben Elton was funny in the 80s?
Mum: Yes, when he was talking about Thatcher and all that, yes he was funny, but he gets a bit irritating now [I think here she's refering to interviews she's seen him do in recent years].
Me: Well there's this guy on the internet who says Ben Elton wasn't funny.
Mum: Of course he was funny. How old is this guy?
Me: 23.
Mum: Then he was only about 2 years old in the 80s! What would he know!?! |
Maybe your mom isn't very good at math.
Ben Elton does not have good timing, sounds shrill and cannot tell a good joke. Maybe the political climate made him funnier as he had something to rail against but imo he is not a funny guy.
I understand that you have to look at the context. But you can still say someone was plain not funny even taking the rest into account. Do I really have to look at every comedian who was famous before I was born and say 'Oh he must be funny, I just don't get it because I wasn't around then'?
| Quote: |
| You didn't laugh at Ben Elton, you wen't 'you tell 'em mate' |
exactly. But guys can do this and still be funny later. I listen to Bill hicks and he kills me, Ben Elton not so much. Both where defined by the political situation of the time. One of them is funny.
| Quote: |
As for Ken Goodwin, he is being subtle and most of you can't see it. He is playing the persona of an imbecile and he doesn't know why he is being funny. Hence 'why are you laughing'
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I'm not. Really I know what he is trying to do but it's not working. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
Maybe your mom isn't very good at math. |
I don't have a mom, I have a mam or (when I'm talkin' proppa lahk) a mum. I didn't bother to type out the last bit of the conversation where she talked about Ben Elton being on Friday Night Live in 1985 - which puts you at 2 years old.
I think BK is right about Ben Elton being a breath of fresh air. He doesn't make you fall down laughing, rather he has you nodding your head thinking "too bloody right mate" - perhaps the laughter he provokes is of the bitter sort. He made very sharp observations, both social and political in a time when a big section of the population were being bent over and ****ed up the bottom by the lovely Tories.
Like BK I was brought up in a mining village which was severely affected by Thatcherism, and has never really recovered. Even in primary school you were politically aware. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Lol, well maybe I'm not so tragically wrapped up in where I am from(Donegal Ireland) that I care whether someone says mom, mammy, ma, mam, mommy, mum or mother dearest.
| Quote: |
| think BK is right about Ben Elton being a breath of fresh air. He doesn't make you fall down laughing, rather he has you nodding your head thinking "too bloody right mate" |
Is this not my point. I didn't say he didn't make sharp political observations, I said he wasn't funny. There be a difference. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Lol, well maybe I'm not so tragically wrapped up in where I am from(Donegal Ireland) that I care whether someone says mom, mammy, ma, mam, mommy, mum or mother dearest. |
Ah were teasing you me Oirish ducks and di'n't mean fer it t' come off 'way tha clearly took it. Ah've been 'aving a laff chatting awaay in dialect wi' me mate BK, tis all. Tha dun't need to get tha knickers in ' twist o'er it.  |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| Lol, well maybe I'm not so tragically wrapped up in where I am from(Donegal Ireland) that I care whether someone says mom, mammy, ma, mam, mommy, mum or mother dearest. |
Ah were teasing you me Oirish ducks and di'n't mean fer it t' come off 'way tha clearly took it. Ah've been having a laff chatting awaay in dialect wi' me mate BK, tis all. Tha dun't need to get tha knickers in ' twist o'er it. |
No problem oor doll. I wish I was at home... mainly for the yokes tho. yokes..I'm sure slang has moved on in the last couple of years and I'm hopelessly outdated. Just to tie it in with the thread. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| Lol, well maybe I'm not so tragically wrapped up in where I am from(Donegal Ireland) that I care whether someone says mom, mammy, ma, mam, mommy, mum or mother dearest. |
Ah were teasing you me Oirish ducks and di'n't mean fer it t' come off 'way tha clearly took it. Ah've been having a laff chatting awaay in dialect wi' me mate BK, tis all. Tha dun't need to get tha knickers in ' twist o'er it. |
No problem oor doll. I wish I was at home... mainly for the wingers tho. Wingers..I'm sure slang has moved on in the last couple of years and I'm hopelessly outdated. Just to tie it in with the thread. |
Sigh. I know just what you mean. You go away for a few years and everything seems to have changed, including the lingo. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
I just had this conversation (tried to recreate it word for word) with my mum:
Me: Did you think Ben Elton was funny in the 80s?
Mum: Yes, when he was talking about Thatcher and all that, yes he was funny, but he gets a bit irritating now [I think here she's refering to interviews she's seen him do in recent years].
Me: Well there's this guy on the internet who says Ben Elton wasn't funny.
Mum: Of course he was funny. How old is this guy?
Me: 23.
Mum: Then he was only about 2 years old in the 80s! What would he know!?! |
Maybe your mom isn't very good at math.
Ben Elton does not have good timing, sounds shrill and cannot tell a good joke. Maybe the political climate made him funnier as he had something to rail against but imo he is not a funny guy.
I understand that you have to look at the context. But you can still say someone was plain not funny even taking the rest into account. Do I really have to look at every comedian who was famous before I was born and say 'Oh he must be funny, I just don't get it because I wasn't around then'?
| Quote: |
| You didn't laugh at Ben Elton, you wen't 'you tell 'em mate' |
exactly. But guys can do this and still be funny later. I listen to Bill hicks and he kills me, Ben Elton not so much. Both where defined by the political situation of the time. One of them is funny.
| Quote: |
As for Ken Goodwin, he is being subtle and most of you can't see it. He is playing the persona of an imbecile and he doesn't know why he is being funny. Hence 'why are you laughing'
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I'm not. Really I know what he is trying to do but it's not working. |
See, you know why your argruments are turning to dust? Because you are failing to see that comedy is subjective.
If you don't find Ken Goodwin funny, fine! but it doesn't make it fact. There are lots of people who don't find Bernard Manning funny but there are a lot more who think he is a comedy genius, facts are Bernard Manning is the master of timing which is acknowleged by every (alternative or otherwise) comedian of note in the UK. You may not like Bernard Manning's material and you may not find him funny yourself but to dismiss him as unfunny as fact is wrong (as an example).
So if Ken Goowin doesn't work for you then thats fine and I understand why, but to dismiss him as unfunny as a fact is wrong as I find him funny and wasn't even born when he performed that paticular set in 1971 so it is nothing to do with times a changing but with you having a crappy sense of humour! (in my opinion! )
Last edited by bejarano-korea on Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
Lol, well maybe I'm not so tragically wrapped up in where I am from(Donegal Ireland) that I care whether someone says mom, mammy, ma, mam, mommy, mum or mother dearest.
| Quote: |
| think BK is right about Ben Elton being a breath of fresh air. He doesn't make you fall down laughing, rather he has you nodding your head thinking "too bloody right mate" |
Is this not my point. I didn't say he didn't make sharp political observations, I said he wasn't funny. There be a difference. |
This is coming from a man from a society that still talk about the potato famine!
Facts are that the miners strike of 1984-85 was one of the most brutal industrial strikes of modern history and a lot of the people who are still affected by it are alive today and living with the consequences of it.
It it not ancient history son, and if you lived through it and saw your family and your neighbours and your town destroyed within one year
maybe you would be tragically wrapped up in where I am from.
Probably this hasn't happened in Donegal since.. Irish independence in 1921? the dreaded potato famine? But BB was trying to explain to you why Ben Elton came about and the facts are you weren't around at the time so your opinion about how Ben Elton was percieved at the time doesn't count on this one does it? |
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