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Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Have you read the Koran? You do understand that Jihad is not a pillar of Islam, right? That Christians are considered "brothers of the book" and are largely given respect by Muslims in the Koran. Have you read the bible or later important Christian writings? Our writings are just as bad if not worse, but I don't see you painting all Christians as evil.


Yes, I have read the Koran, and despite the fact that Christians and Jews are referred to as people of the book, they are generally treated with suspicion and hostility, and under the Islamic state are second class citizens, or dhimmi. Of course, if you had anything other than a cursory PC knowledge of Islam you would know this.

Although Jihad is not a 'pillar of Islam' that does not negate the fact that it is referred to countless times in the Koran and is attested to in numerous Hadith and by the actions of Mohammed. Fighting the unbelievers in the name of Islam is constantly emphasized, and it is no surprise that many Muslims, all over the world, take these commands at their word, and do indeed fell compelled to murder infidels. Moreover, the number of militant Muslim groups engaged in violence and the establishment of theocratic facist states is in no way comparable to the tiny number of abortion extremists who have commited a handful of violent acts over the past 20 years or so, although it is no surprise that you would bring up such an example to attest to the fact that Christian extremists are just as much of a threat to the world as Muslim ones. They are not, and anyone with a modicum of intelligence or common sense can see this.
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Pligganease



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicissitude wrote:
If I were ever in real danger, and I had a choice, guess which of these doors I would knock on:

1. the USA Embassy, 2. A Christian church, 3. A Synagogue, 4. a Buddhist temple, 5. the Red Cross, 6. the salvation army, 7. the home of any random Muslim, 8. A Mosque.


Guess which door I�d be least likely to knock on.


I'm curious. Tell me.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

demaratus wrote:

Have you read the Koran? You do understand that Jihad is not a pillar of Islam, right? That Christians are considered "brothers of the book" and are largely given respect by Muslims in the Koran.


That is so naive. You are naive. Naive.

I can't believe you have fallen for their lies. Read up on dhimnitude and how they are to approach the infidels.

islam is primarily concerned with the separation between believes and nonbelievers. It is the duty of every muslim to kill, enslave or convert (via the lies you've been told and naively believed) the kuffar.

Wake Up.

(Mod edit: quoted portion of this post exceeded reasonable length limits for posts in these forums and was removed)
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has it been a month already since BJ started one of these threads? This is his favorite hobby horse. I wonder if it's related to a phase of the moon.
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demaratus



Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Christians and Jews are different? My point which has largely been ignored, is that I believe that a lot of the popular support for religious extremists in the middle east comes not out of genuine desire to be ruled under an extremly authoritarian religious regime. Rather because only those people tend to resist foriegn governments and interference in their countries. I never said that Muslim states will adopt 100% peace, freedom and democracy. But I do believe that most average Muslims would probably not support these groups extreme acts outside of their borders, if there was no reason to support them within their borders.

As for religious groups and violence/hate. Come on guys Christians and Jews have been no better than the Muslims.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

demaratus wrote:
And Christians and Jews are different?


Yes, that is correct. The Christians and Jews have embraced reason to a greater extent than Muslims have. Be careful, I'm not saying AT ALL that Muslims are unreasonable, just that the role of reason in Islamic theology is not as prominant as it is in the Judeo-Christian world.

Quote:
Come on guys Christians and Jews have been no better than the Muslims.


Also correct. Historically, Christians in particular, have suffered from the same kind of problems as Islam is suffering from now. The specific issues may be different, Christians were not that concerned with covering their women with veils, but the adherence to tradition and the literal word of revelation was the same.

But, even during Galileo's time, scriptual literalism was not espoused by the highest echelons of the Catholic Church. And today, Pope Benedict XIV is promoting the confluence of faith and reason increasingly in Church dogma. One hopes he has some success in his conversation which seems directed primarily at Muslims.
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demaratus



Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
demaratus wrote:
And Christians and Jews are different?


Yes, that is correct. The Christians and Jews have embraced reason to a greater extent than Muslims have. Be careful, I'm not saying AT ALL that Muslims are unreasonable, just that the role of reason in Islamic theology is not as prominant as it is in the Judeo-Christian world.

Quote:
Come on guys Christians and Jews have been no better than the Muslims.


Also correct. Historically, Christians in particular, have suffered from the same kind of problems as Islam is suffering from now. The specific issues may be different, Christians were not that concerned with covering their women with veils, but the adherence to tradition and the literal word of revelation was the same.

But, even during Galileo's time, scriptual literalism was not espoused by the highest echelons of the Catholic Church. And today, Pope Benedict XIV is promoting the confluence of faith and reason increasingly in Church dogma. One hopes he has some success in his conversation which seems directed primarily at Muslims.


Good post,

However with regard to the second paragraph of your post you make refrence to the past with Chritian nations. How about the very recent past and current issues in Christian nations. Look at the nations of Christian faith (or those with sizable minorities) that have had issues with foriegn influence. Here are some modern examples:


The Balkans. There are definatley issues there with people supporting extremist or very hard line people who associate with religion (massacres of Muslims and the response of Christians being massacred). How about Lebanon? A 60%-40% mix of Muslims and Christians (with a little Druze) in a nation which has endured a great deal of conflict from both Muslims and Christians. Israel, a Jewish state, often sees the populace rally behind the Orthodox or more hardline leaders in difficult times. The Kenesset has requirements for Orthodox Jews to be represented to a minimum requirement for this very purpose.

Strangley Benedict, when he was a Cardinal, was highly respected by Muslims for his firm, often literal take on scripture and the value he placed no inter-religious dialouge. He was a highly respected man until the comments he made in 2006.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Has it been a month already since BJ started one of these threads? This is his favorite hobby horse. I wonder if it's related to a phase of the moon.


Maybe the moon, or maybe they just give me so darn much material.
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Vicissitude



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
Vicissitude wrote:
If I were ever in real danger, and I had a choice, guess which of these doors I would knock on:

1. the USA Embassy, 2. A Christian church, 3. A Synagogue, 4. a Buddhist temple, 5. the Red Cross, 6. the salvation army, 7. the home of any random Muslim, 8. A Mosque.


Guess which door I�d be least likely to knock on.


I'm curious. Tell me.


Most likely: Ans. 7. the home of any random Muslim,

Least likely: Ans. it's a toss up between the USA Embassy and the Red Cross. Before you ask why, let me remind you of the victims of the Katrina disaster and what they did TO Americans. The American government did all it could to prevent help from getting to the victims while the Red Cross sought to capitalize, especially on the blood drives. Qatar did a hell of a lot more to help the victims than they ever did.

BTW, I'm American and I wouldn't ask the US Embassy for serious help if it were the last place on earth to get help.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicissitude wrote:
Least likely: Ans. it's a toss up between the USA Embassy and the Red Cross.


Both the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement and the American Red Cross are NGOs, as is a church. Actually, Red Cross is a group of NGOs. The Salvation Army is a Christian denomination, a church.

Quote:
Before you ask why, let me remind you of the victims of the Katrina disaster and what they did TO Americans. The American government did all it could to prevent help from getting to the victims while the Red Cross sought to capitalize, especially on the blood drives.


What a load of utter malarkey!

Quote:
BTW, I'm American and I wouldn't ask the US Embassy for serious help if it were the last place on earth to get help.


Letting your prejudices govern your actions is to permit ignorance to be your master. As far as requesting assistance from the US Embassy, you may wish to recall that foreign embassies are restricted by both host country law and their own country's law as to what assistance they may provide.

Your malarkey about the Katrina disaster shows what you have zero understanding of (a) the disaster itself and (b) the division of government in the US federal system.
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Vicissitude



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali is in either in a perpetual state of denial or a complete ignoramous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

Quote:
The government was accused of making things worse, instead of making things better; perhaps even deliberately, by preventing help by others while delaying its own response...critics have noted that while the local government gave a mandatory evacuation order 22 hours before the storm hit, they did not make provisions to evacuate the large numbers of citizens unable to evacuate themselves. For example, Walter Maestri, head of emergency preparedness for Jefferson Parish, stated that Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) officials had promised that within 48 hours of a hurricane, they would provide assistance with transporting evacuees from the city. However, when Katrina hit, it was mainly left up to individuals to find their own way out of the city... FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was greatly surprised by the much larger numbers of people who turned up seeking refuge, and also that Brown held back supply vehicles from delivering food and water for two days before they arrived on Friday, September 2...members of the United States Congress and others charged that the relief efforts were slow because most of the affected areas were poor. There was also concern that many National Guard units were short staffed in Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama because they were currently on a tour of duty in Iraq [this makes me want to puke] ...New Orleans' top emergency management official called the effort a, "national disgrace,"...The New York Times, describing the President's reaction in a September 1 speech, said, "Nothing about the President's demeanour yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis." ... Many have also criticised the local and state governments, who have primary responsibility for local disasters. Mayor Nagin was criticised for allegedly failing to execute the New Orleans disaster plan, which called for the use of the city's school buses in evacuating residents unable to leave on their own. The buses were never deployed and then destroyed in the flooding.




I'll get back to you about the criticisms of the Red Cross when my internet connection is working better and after I've had time to finish puking from reading and recording the aforementioned.
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AbbeFaria



Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

riverboy wrote:
Christians got into the killing for God with Constantine in 316AD


That's not entirely accurate. After Constantine converted the empire, the soldiers were fighting under the banner of Christ, but it was not a true holy war. There was religious persecution, but that is also not war. St. Augustine said in the fifth century that as a Christian leader, war was a neccessary evil that would sometimes be forced upon them but that it should not be used as a tool of the Church. He said that the faithful should not engage in war of conversions or to destroy heresies or pagans. Even during the First Crusade, they were pilgrims before they were soldiers. They took a pilgrim's vow before embarking towards the Jerusalem.

The Catholics of Europe did not learn the concept of holy war, as it is waged by Muslims, both then and now, until they had direct confrontation with them during the reconquista in Spain. To their view, since Europe was land consecrated to Christ, by fighting a war to liberate Spain from Islam, they were actually fighting for Christ. It was the reasoning that was later used to call up the first Crusade by Pope Urban II.

-S-
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

demaratus wrote:
Kuros wrote:
demaratus wrote:
And Christians and Jews are different?


Yes, that is correct. The Christians and Jews have embraced reason to a greater extent than Muslims have. Be careful, I'm not saying AT ALL that Muslims are unreasonable, just that the role of reason in Islamic theology is not as prominant as it is in the Judeo-Christian world.

Quote:
Come on guys Christians and Jews have been no better than the Muslims.


Also correct. Historically, Christians in particular, have suffered from the same kind of problems as Islam is suffering from now. The specific issues may be different, Christians were not that concerned with covering their women with veils, but the adherence to tradition and the literal word of revelation was the same.

But, even during Galileo's time, scriptual literalism was not espoused by the highest echelons of the Catholic Church. And today, Pope Benedict XIV is promoting the confluence of faith and reason increasingly in Church dogma. One hopes he has some success in his conversation which seems directed primarily at Muslims.


Good post,

However with regard to the second paragraph of your post you make refrence to the past with Chritian nations. How about the very recent past and current issues in Christian nations. Look at the nations of Christian faith (or those with sizable minorities) that have had issues with foriegn influence. Here are some modern examples:

The Balkans. There are definatley issues there with people supporting extremist or very hard line people who associate with religion (massacres of Muslims and the response of Christians being massacred). How about Lebanon? A 60%-40% mix of Muslims and Christians (with a little Druze) in a nation which has endured a great deal of conflict from both Muslims and Christians. Israel, a Jewish state, often sees the populace rally behind the Orthodox or more hardline leaders in difficult times. The Kenesset has requirements for Orthodox Jews to be represented to a minimum requirement for this very purpose.

Strangley Benedict, when he was a Cardinal, was highly respected by Muslims for his firm, often literal take on scripture and the value he placed no inter-religious dialouge. He was a highly respected man until the comments he made in 2006.


When you mean the Balkans do you mean Serbian atrocities in Bosnia? Look, I'm not here to defend Christianity entirely. There are bad things done in the name of Christianity. But the same bad things can be done in the name of nationalism, and even in the name of democracy. The age of reason tried to throw off religion, and it gave us Napoleon. Tribalism is at least as savage as religious fanaticism.

My point is merely to say: let's examine the theology of the issue. How does Christianity or Judaism compare to Islam? And there's one major important point besides the role of reason, and its something you mentioned, the interpretation of Scripture. Understand that the Church has grappled with some tough Scriptural attacks, I'm thinking most recently of the scientific refutation of the Biblicial account of the age of the world (after that watershed, the evolution thing is kind of ant-climactic). It is absolutely necessary that the Church approach the Bible with sophistication. Literal scriptural interpretation has never been a tenet of the Catholic Church, although what they considered to be a literal interpretation meant has always been in flux. In fact, the entire premise of the Catholic Church is that the hierarchy of the Church mediates between the Word of God and the worshipper. This was an important point for Luther, who felt that men should have a direct relationship to the Bible. Even Luther was not a strict literalist, but he rejected the idea that the Catholic Church should act as an elite mediator between man and the true mediator, Jesus Christ.

Islam has its own history of theology, but it is primarily concerned with applying the Word of the Koran. The problem is, the Koran is God's Word. Period. It was the words of the Angel Gabriel as pronounced to Muhammad. This presents a special difficulty for a broad interpretation of the revealed text, because how can man approach God's Word and criticize it?

The speech you reference by Pope Benedict is the very speech I linked to above. I urge you to read the entire speech (admittedly, it is long) if you are interested in the theological issues. There is a subtle swipe at a certain kind of Islam, but that is alright. I have read some of the articles by the media who have an interest in claiming that what Pope Benedict had said was controversial. It was newsworthy, but Benedict inserted the reference deliberately in order to gain attention to the larger speech.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicissitude wrote:
CentralCali is in either in a perpetual state of denial or a complete ignoramous.

{snip}

I'll get back to you about the criticisms of the Red Cross when my internet connection is working better and after I've had time to finish puking from reading and recording the aforementioned.


I've a better idea. Get back to me when you learn to behave as an adult in an adult conversation.
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demaratus



Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you mean the Balkans do you mean Serbian atrocities in Bosnia? Look, I'm not here to defend Christianity entirely. There are bad things done in the name of Christianity. But the same bad things can be done in the name of nationalism, and even in the name of democracy. The age of reason tried to throw off religion, and it gave us Napoleon. Tribalism is at least as savage as religious fanaticism.


I was referring to Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia and Bulgaria. There have been atrocities carried out by Christians against people of other faiths (mainly Muslims and jews). If you read my posts carefully you will see that I am saying that a great deal of support for Religious extremists in the Muslim world is motivated by nationalist leanings rather than a true desire for an authoritarian muslim state. We are agreeing on the same things.

The interpretation of scripture is very important. We are agreeing here for the most part again. The people here who are being ultra critical of Muslims believe all Muslims are Extremist/funadamentalist (without considering the diversity in the religion). This would be like viewing all Jews as Orthodox and all Christians as being Fundamentalists.
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