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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I wonder if the UN really did everything it could to check Saddam's WMD programs. I wouldn't be suprised if some of his friends in the UN told their people hide evidence so Saddam would not get caught. IF they were already taking his money why not take it a step further? |
Jesus Christ, we haven't found the stockpiles of WMD's that the neocons used to justify the whole invasion. And a couple tubes in an office building in lower Manhatten certainly isn't the smoking gun.
I know you need to hold on to this because it's the only way you can justify the largest foreign policy blunder in American history. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I wonder if the UN really did everything it could to check Saddam's WMD programs. I wouldn't be suprised if some of his friends in the UN told their people hide evidence so Saddam would not get caught. IF they were already taking his money why not take it a step further? |
Jesus Christ, we haven't found the stockpiles of WMD's that the neocons used to justify the whole invasion. And a couple tubes in an office building in lower Manhatten certainly isn't the smoking gun.
I know you need to hold on to this because it's the only way you can justify the largest foreign policy blunder in American history. |
It could be evidence that UN wasn't going to hold Saddam accountable and was even willing to cover up for him or even protect him.
The Iraq was is part of a much larger war, it was never just about Iraq . The US invaded Iraq not to invade Iraq but to invade the middle east. 9-11 showed the way the mideast was was a threat to the US. It needed to be taken care of , it still needs to be taken care of. Doing what is needed can't be a blunder. Is the war on terror a blunder? And if you say Al Qaeda was just Afghanistan. Tell me is Osama Bin Laden from Afghaninstan? What about his number two Zawahari? What about Al Qaeda co founder Mohamad Atef? What about the 19 hijackers of 9-11? Not one - not one of these people was from Afghanistan. Those who fund Al Qaeda aren't from Afghanistan.
It took 46 years to win the cold war. This war will probably be somewhat easier. With the correct weapons systems and alternative energy the US will be able to gain a decisive advantage over its enemies.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
The UN is a massive organization. A corrupt and inept one at that.
But I still have to laugh that two of you on this thread that read an article about a storage issue, came up with a plot to harm UN members or cover up Sadam's weapons program? |
I take some issue with saying the U.N., wholesale, is corrupt. Is it more corrupt then the U.S. Government vis-a-vis its own people? I doubt it.
The U.N. has its problems, but it has done many good things for the world and for many people of poverty. I am sure there are some UN officials who are corrupt. I don't doubt that including those who got involved in the sex trade in Africa while being peacekeepers and also the gold trade.
As far as WMD, a few chemical weapons, even if found, wouldn't make Iraq a credible threat to even Syria. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
The UN is a massive organization. A corrupt and inept one at that.
But I still have to laugh that two of you on this thread that read an article about a storage issue, came up with a plot to harm UN members or cover up Sadam's weapons program? |
I take some issue with saying the U.N., wholesale, is corrupt. Is it more corrupt then the U.S. Government vis-a-vis its own people? I doubt it.
The U.N. has its problems, but it has done many good things for the world and for many people of poverty. I am sure there are some UN officials who are corrupt. I don't doubt that including those who got involved in the sex trade in Africa while being peacekeepers and also the gold trade.
As far as WMD, a few chemical weapons, even if found, wouldn't make Iraq a credible threat to even Syria. |
The US govenment looks out for the US. You can't say that about the UN.
IF both are corrupt I will put my trust in the one who is on my side. Makes sense.
The chemical weapons would just be more evidence that Saddam never intended to behave. But Saddams' WMDs if he had any weren't more than a nominal threat to the US. The middle east on the other hand was a threat to the US.
The US government really thought Saddam had WMDs and I think he had some too. But they were never much a of threat to the US.
WMDs was just an excuse for the war. Not the real reason for the war. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Jesus Christ, we haven't found the stockpiles of WMD's that the neocons used to justify the whole invasion. |
No one with half a brain or educated about the issue really thought thats why they went in.
But the media articles about Iraq not having any WMDs at all, were not proven by the UN prior to the invasion either.
So, lets deal with the facts and one major one is that if Afghanistan was a failed state in the 90's and they provided a home for extremists with their small size and location. What kind of a failed state would Iraq be and what would be the result of a US failure? |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Is the war on terror a blunder? |
Yes, and here's why.
Prior to the 9/11 attacks Al Qaeda was a small, but capable terrorist organization. But it wasn't a very unified one and the power that Al Qaeda posessed wasn't in its resources, but instead in its ideology.
Now the whole purpose of the 9/11 attacks was to not shock the Western world. But instead to shock the Muslim world.
It was hoped that this action would wake the Muslim world up and overturn the masses complacency when it came to their own acceptence of the military backed dictatorships of the Middle East (i.e. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...)
Predictively the Americans invaded Afghanistan. This in turn has strengthened the elements interested in overthrowing the dictatorship in Pakistan.
Most importantly it created the illusion of a global and unified vioce based around Sunni fundamental extremeism.
The invasion of Iraq was even better for Al Qaeda as it not only served as a real life training ground, but also increased anti-American sentiment throughout the Muslim world. And more importantly increased the amount of young muslims willing to follow Al Qaeda's ideology and take up arms against America, it's allies, and thier own corrupt governments.
The actions undertaken by the Americans and its allies following (and to an extent before) 9/11 have played perfectly into the hands of Al Queda and its philosophy. i.e. take out the near enemy (arab dictators), by having the far enemy (america) come with guns blazing into the Muslim world. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="endo"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Is the war on terror a blunder? |
Yes, and here's why.
| Quote: |
Prior to the 9/11 attacks Al Qaeda was a small, but capable terrorist organization. But it wasn't a very unified one and the power that Al Qaeda posessed wasn't in its resources, but instead in its ideology.
Now the whole purpose of the 9/11 attacks was to not shock the Western world. But instead to shock the Muslim world.
It was hoped that this action would wake the Muslim world up and overturn the masses complacency when it came to their own acceptence of the military backed dictatorships of the Middle East (i.e. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...)
Predictively the Americans invaded Afghanistan. This in turn has strengthened the elements interested in overthrowing the dictatorship in Pakistan.
Most importantly it created the illusion of a global and unified vioce based around Sunni fundamental extremeism.
The invasion of Iraq was even better for Al Qaeda as it not only served as a real life training ground, but also increased anti-American sentiment throughout the Muslim world. And more importantly increased the amount of young muslims willing to follow Al Qaeda's ideology and take up arms against America, it's allies, and thier own corrupt governments.
The actions undertaken by the Americans and its allies following (and to an extent before) 9/11 have played perfectly into the hands of Al Queda and its philosophy. i.e. take out the near enemy (arab dictators), by having the far enemy (america) come with guns blazing into the Muslim world. |
70,000 trained in AQ camps.
Mideast regimes have great security services . Within their own nations they control everything. If they choose they can take out AQ in their own nations if they want to , feel the need to or are forced too. Moreover one of the biggest reasons for AQ and other terror groups is that mideast regimes and elties teach hate and incite violence.
Notice that no on in the mideast got upset when Saddam gassed the Kurds or when Assad destroyed the city of Hama or when Khomeni's fatwa killed muslims or when AQ killed muslims in Afghanistan.
But let me ask you this.
But instead of the war on terror what ought the US do? Surrender? Accept it?
After 9-11 many in that part of the world saw suicide bombing and terror as something to equalize US military power.
As I said before the war on terror will be easier than the cold war. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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If you look at Joo's goals of "Making people not hate America by shooting them" in context of the real world, you'll note that they can only be reached via genocide.
Then again, Joo is also in support of torture in the name of patriotism. One doesn't always lead to another, but when a guy takes political ideology and practices it like his religion, it's not too far of a leap.
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| What kind of a failed state would Iraq be and what would be the result of a US failure? |
Probably something that looks exactly like what they got there now. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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twg"]
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| If you look at Joo's goals of "Making people not hate America by shooting them" in context of the real world, you'll note that they can only be reached via genocide. |
The US hasn't even tried targeted killings. How about the US start a policy ; anyone who incites violence against the US is now a target for assassination? Kill those who call for holy war against the US . By the way did General Sherman of the US civil war enage in genocide?
| Quote: |
| Then again, Joo is also in support of torture in the name of patriotism. One doesn't always lead to another, but when a guy takes political ideology and practices it like his religion, it's not too far of a leap. |
whatever it takes to win. But I have always said I don't think the US ought to tie the hands of those doing the interrogations .
The TWG postion is that the US is just going to have to tolerate a low level and sometimes high level war against it. Because the US is bigger and stronger the US can't hit back too hard. Sorry TWG the US doesn't have to tolerate a low level war against it by the moral equivalent of the Klan.
Yep again TWG demands that the US accept a low level war against it .
The TWG position is that the US has no right for force mideast regimes and elites to stop teaching hate inciting violence, supporting terror and funding Al Qaeda.
Well sorry TWG.
All enemy has to do is give up their war if they don't want to give up their war then they ought to be forced to.
Miltary force to steal the oil of another nation is wrong. However it is justified to force the other side to quit their war.
The US doesn't have to tolerate a war against it. If you don't like it well jump in a lake and don't come up for air. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Is the war on terror a blunder? |
Yes, and here's why.
Prior to the 9/11 attacks Al Qaeda was a small, but capable terrorist organization. But it wasn't a very unified one and the power that Al Qaeda posessed wasn't in its resources, but instead in its ideology.
Now the whole purpose of the 9/11 attacks was to not shock the Western world. But instead to shock the Muslim world.
It was hoped that this action would wake the Muslim world up and overturn the masses complacency when it came to their own acceptence of the military backed dictatorships of the Middle East (i.e. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...)
Predictively the Americans invaded Afghanistan. This in turn has strengthened the elements interested in overthrowing the dictatorship in Pakistan.
Most importantly it created the illusion of a global and unified vioce based around Sunni fundamental extremeism.
The invasion of Iraq was even better for Al Qaeda as it not only served as a real life training ground, but also increased anti-American sentiment throughout the Muslim world. And more importantly increased the amount of young muslims willing to follow Al Qaeda's ideology and take up arms against America, it's allies, and thier own corrupt governments.
The actions undertaken by the Americans and its allies following (and to an extent before) 9/11 have played perfectly into the hands of Al Queda and its philosophy. i.e. take out the near enemy (arab dictators), by having the far enemy (america) come with guns blazing into the Muslim world. |
Incorrect. Even Sunni insurgents are now turning against foreign AQ extremists. Some Sunni sheiks are even targeting them. AQ was given an opportunity but due to its disregard for Iraqi life it is now losing ground steadily. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Is the war on terror a blunder? |
Yes, and here's why.
Prior to the 9/11 attacks Al Qaeda was a small, but capable terrorist organization. But it wasn't a very unified one and the power that Al Qaeda posessed wasn't in its resources, but instead in its ideology.
Now the whole purpose of the 9/11 attacks was to not shock the Western world. But instead to shock the Muslim world.
It was hoped that this action would wake the Muslim world up and overturn the masses complacency when it came to their own acceptence of the military backed dictatorships of the Middle East (i.e. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...)
Predictively the Americans invaded Afghanistan. This in turn has strengthened the elements interested in overthrowing the dictatorship in Pakistan.
Most importantly it created the illusion of a global and unified vioce based around Sunni fundamental extremeism.
The invasion of Iraq was even better for Al Qaeda as it not only served as a real life training ground, but also increased anti-American sentiment throughout the Muslim world. And more importantly increased the amount of young muslims willing to follow Al Qaeda's ideology and take up arms against America, it's allies, and thier own corrupt governments.
The actions undertaken by the Americans and its allies following (and to an extent before) 9/11 have played perfectly into the hands of Al Queda and its philosophy. i.e. take out the near enemy (arab dictators), by having the far enemy (america) come with guns blazing into the Muslim world. |
Incorrect. Even Sunni insurgents are now turning against foreign AQ extremists. Some Sunni sheiks are even targeting them. AQ was given an opportunity but due to its disregard for Iraqi life it is now losing ground steadily. |
This light on the horizon that you somehow see is just too dim to mean anything of significance.
AQ has gained experience from Iraq which will have ramifications throught the Muslim and the rest of the world.
Al Qaeda backed terrorist bombings in southern Iraq at important Shia shrines were at the forefront of the divisions we are now seeing take place in Iraq.
I'm not saying the division of Iraq wasn't already going to take place along ethnic and religious lines, but the Al Qaeda bombings Samara increased the speed and violent nature of the conflict.
They are one of if not the main group involved in the attempts to destabilize Iraq and the rest of the Middle East.
You see the collapse of Iraq will have ramifications throughout the region. Most notibly Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="endo"][
This light on the horizon that you somehow see is just too dim to mean anything of significance.
AQ has gained experience from Iraq which will have ramifications throught the Muslim and the rest of the world.
| Quote: |
Al Qaeda backed terrorist bombings in southern Iraq at important Shia shrines were at the forefront of the divisions we are now seeing take place in Iraq.
I'm not saying the division of Iraq wasn't already going to take place along ethnic and religious lines, but the Al Qaeda bombings Samara increased the speed and violent nature of the conflict.
They are one of if not the main group involved in the attempts to destabilize Iraq and the rest of the Middle East.
You see the collapse of Iraq will have ramifications throughout the region. Most notibly Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria. |
Why ought Iraq not be split up. It ought never have been put together in the first place. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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| Jesus Christ, we haven't found the stockpiles of WMD's that the neocons used to justify the whole invasion. |
No one with half a brain or educated about the issue really thought thats why they went in. |
Nooo, I did, to some extent anyway. I was posting on this board back then, and I kept pretty tight lipped about that one, neoncons here were guaranteeing that they would be found. I thought there was no way the American Goverment would spin a yarn this big without them having evidence of something there.
You see here, even a poster like Joo Rip still jumps on any hint of a remnant of WMD's such as mentioned in the OP, in a guarded way of course, but I think more conservative, intelligent Bush administration supporters such as he, were genuinely shocked by there being no evidence of WMD's. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Jesus Christ, we haven't found the stockpiles of WMD's that the neocons used to justify the whole invasion. |
No one with half a brain or educated about the issue really thought thats why they went in. |
Nooo, I did, to some extent anyway. I was posting on this board back then, and I kept pretty tight lipped about that one, neoncons here were guaranteeing that they would be found. I thought there was no way the American Goverment would spin a yarn this big without them having evidence of something there.
You see here, even a poster like Joo Rip still jumps on any hint of a remnant of WMD's such as mentioned in the OP, in a guarded way of course, but I think more conservative, intelligent Bush administration supporters such as he, were genuinely shocked by there being no evidence of WMD's. |
Yep , and to this day I think there is a lot that that we don't know about what Saddam had.
I also expect that five or ten years in the future something will be found in Iraq.
Iraq's WMDS were never much more than a nominal threat to the US. And I don't think they were the real reason for the war.
But I do think the Bush administration thought that Saddam had WMDS.
Otherwise they would have came up with another excuse for the war.
The Bush adminstation might be stupid but they certainly would not want to look stupid. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Jesus Christ, we haven't found the stockpiles of WMD's that the neocons used to justify the whole invasion. |
No one with half a brain or educated about the issue really thought thats why they went in. |
Nooo, I did, to some extent anyway. I was posting on this board back then, and I kept pretty tight lipped about that one, neoncons here were guaranteeing that they would be found. I thought there was no way the American Goverment would spin a yarn this big without them having evidence of something there.
You see here, even a poster like Joo Rip still jumps on any hint of a remnant of WMD's such as mentioned in the OP, in a guarded way of course, but I think more conservative, intelligent Bush administration supporters such as he, were genuinely shocked by there being no evidence of WMD's. |
There are hints and rumors of WMD spirited into Syria. But on the off-chance that its true, how much would it have to have been to justify the cluster-fiasco of the Iraq War?
What worries me is the effect all this is having in the international community with regards to Iran. The IAEA admits they have 2,000 working centrifuges.
Oops. Wrong country. |
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