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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Each successful abduction creates more.
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Oh, give us a break. Kidnapping is nothing new. Even if the taliban had killed them all, they still would have gone on kidnapping. Personally, my government has already stated that I am expendable, so its refreshing to meet a government that doesn't feel the same way about its own citizens.
By the way, the USA has had 5 years to clean up Afghanistan, 3 years of which the violence was low key. They failed, so why blame other countries for trying to rescue thier citizens. If the Coalition win (I damm well hope they do and support them in their aim) then we can discuss it. But what would have 23 dead koreans proven?
1. Afghanistan can't protect others.
2. The US is no better off than Russia
3. Korea is not a nation
4. ?
So, relax. Its over, now lets deal with the fall out. Though please don't tell me what I want or read into my words what I haven't said. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Summer Wine"]
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| now lets deal with the fall out. |
Exactly. See the problem there? |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| enns wrote: |
| . This money will be used to fund further terrorist projects. How is this ever justifiable? |
yes..its absurd. A church ends up paying terrorists lots of money so they can buy weapons to kill people. Kind of, defeats the original purpose. |
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enns
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Summer, the point is that they gave the Taliban money. What do you think they will use this for? Think about this. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Exactly. See the problem there? |
Yes, I understand the fall out. Though understand that Afghanistan is not a goldfish bowl and that people from the Iraqi insurgency are influencing it.
They realise that capturing and killing hostages can have the same effect as letting them go free for a payout. It creates fear, terror and proves ones strenght. If the Afghan forces really controlled the countryside, then they should have located and killed the kidnappers in a day or two.
The Kidnapping showed the Afghans weakness, not the payoff. The koreans have wised up, the question is if the Afghan people have? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Summer, the point is that they gave the Taliban money. What do you think they will use this for? Think about this. |
A friend of mine went home after the war against the russians and his cousins told him that during the war, 44 galleon drums of US money came to them on the back of pickups from Iran.
If you really think that the money paid by Korea is really going to make a major impact, then the USA is screwed. Each US missile, shell is costing serious cash and that hasn't won the war in 6 years, so why should 20 million have such an effect?
I have heard of million dollar missiles (thats one a million) and it hasn't helped, so change the style of the war and don't blame others for your *beep* ups. Listen to others for their ideas? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| The Kidnapping showed the Afghans weakness, not the payoff. The koreans have wised up, the question is if the Afghan people have? |
The Taliban is not the Afghani government. You got that memo, right? I think you did, but you still seem to confuse them in your arguments. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| The Taliban is not the Afghani government. You got that memo, right? |
Doh, I said the afghans.
Who the f is the government of afghanistan today. If I meant the taliban, I would have mentioned them. I have been involved in this issue for over 20 years, I understand the ins and outs.
If I dumb it down for the readers, it doesn't mean I am dumb. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: |
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BJWD pleaded:
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| Lastly, the lives of archaeologists, journalists, nurses and engineers are inherently more valuable than those of missionaries. |
Oh please. Not one human life was being saved, or even made more physically comfortable, by an archaeologist digging up artifacts. The German government ransomed her not because she was doing an invaluable service to mankind, but simply because she was a German citizen and the Germans look after their own. Just like the Koreans do.
Furthermore, the money paid to the Iraqi kidnappers is going to go toward violent criminality, just as surely as the money paid to the Taliban will. And it will do just as much to encourage copycats.
Also, I again have to note the sudden interest in nuance, now that it is being pointed out that other countries have been just as willing to toss money at terrorists to get their citizens free. A few weeks ago, we were being told that anyone who goes to Afghanistan deserves anything they get from the terrorists. But apparently, there was whole category of implicit exceptions to that rule, including journalists, engineers, and people who dig up old and unusable objects.
And anyway: my original point was not that paying off terrorists is a great idea, but just that it was a little ridiculous to suggest, as BJWD did, that Korea will become an international pariah as a result of doing so. Unless you believe that a country can be made an international outcast for behaving the exact same way as France, Italy, and Germany. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Enns wrote:
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| It's stunning that anyone can justify the kidnappings and the subsequent payoffs which occurred here. BJWD is spot on. |
Who has tried to justfify the kidnappings?
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| There is a reason why most developed countries have pledged not to negotiate with terrorists. |
Do you take politicians tough-talking rhetoric at face value? According to the link I posted earlier...
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| Among the European nations, only Britain refuses to pay ransom or even negotiate with hostage-takers. The U.S. and Israel also claim to take such a principled stance, but are known to make exceptions. The Reagan administration went so far as to sell arms to arch foe Iran to secure the release of American hostages in Lebanon. Israel has repeatedly agreed to �prisoner�s exchanges� with terrorist groups, leading both Hamas and Hezbollah to believe that they can get a similar deal when they abduct Israeli soldiers. |
The anti-Korea contingent on Dave's fall into the same trap as do Korean nationalists: they assume that Korea is somehow unique among the nations. The difference being, of course, that the nationalists think it is uniquely wonderful, whereas the anti-Korea people think it is uniquely bad. Whereas in fact, on a whole host of issues, including hostage-taking, the Koreans are playing the exact same dirty game as everybody else. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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| The Taliban is not the Afghani government. You got that memo, right? |
Doh, I said the afghans.
Who the f is the government of afghanistan today. If I meant the taliban, I would have mentioned them. I have been involved in this issue for over 20 years, I understand the ins and outs.
If I dumb it down for the readers, it doesn't mean I am dumb. |
Listen, Einstein. I said I supposed you HAD received the memo, but you come off like you believe the Taliban is an organization that other countries should have to deal with.
I know you said the 'Afghani government', but reading between the lines, it seems you consider that government to be not worthy of recognition.
Duh. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Also, I again have to note the sudden interest in nuance, now that it is being pointed out that other countries have been just as willing to toss money at terrorists to get their citizens free. |
In addition to money, there are other conditions to the deal.
1. South Korean troops in Afghanistan to be withdrawn
2. South Korea will stop sending Christian missionaries to Afghanistan
3. South Korean NGOs will leave Afghanistan(by the end of August) |
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The Perfect Cup of Coffee
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Taliban is not the Afghani government. You got that memo, right? |
Doh, I said the afghans.
Who the f is the government of afghanistan today. If I meant the taliban, I would have mentioned them. I have been involved in this issue for over 20 years, I understand the ins and outs.
If I dumb it down for the readers, it doesn't mean I am dumb. |
Listen, Einstein. I said I supposed you HAD received the memo, but you come off like you believe the Taliban is an organization that other countries should have to deal with.
I know you said the 'Afghani government', but reading between the lines, it seems you consider that government to be not worthy of recognition.
Duh. |
Well, unfortunately the Talibs ARE a an organization that other countries have to deal with. What's the % of Afghan territory controlled by Karzai's government at present?
Sad fact, but once the NATO armies pull out (and they will), Karzai is toast, and sadly the Talibs are going to roll back in and control the country in 5-10 years.
And as for the ROK government caving in and giving money -- yeah it looks shameless, but most other countries would, in the end, do the same. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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| Summer, the point is that they gave the Taliban money. What do you think they will use this for? Think about this. |
A friend of mine went home after the war against the russians and his cousins told him that during the war, 44 galleon drums of US money came to them on the back of pickups from Iran.
If you really think that the money paid by Korea is really going to make a major impact, then the USA is screwed. Each US missile, shell is costing serious cash and that hasn't won the war in 6 years, so why should 20 million have such an effect?
I have heard of million dollar missiles (thats one a million) and it hasn't helped, so change the style of the war and don't blame others for your *beep* ups. Listen to others for their ideas? |
two million might not be big money to the US but to the Taliban it is good money.
Korea ought to when the hostages are home - thumb their nose at the Taliban and offer 500 million in reconstruction money to the Afghan government. This would make up for the damage they have done there. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| By the way, the USA has had 5 years to clean up Afghanistan... |
Oh, I could have sworn that the Afghanistan operation was santioned and operated by the UN. |
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