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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Blah yourself....
There ARE absolutes that people can aspire to live by. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
Blah yourself....
There ARE absolutes that people can aspire to live by. |
Even if so, just saying, "Murder is always wrong" is not one of them. Also, love the cute little hedging with "aspire to," heheh ... |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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No "hedging". Humans ARE fallible but one's humanity is enhanced by aspirations to moral absolutes. And, yes, I believe humans can be remarkably successful in realizing those aspirations.
To casually toss out something like "Murder is not always wrong" frankly leaves my head shaking. But I'll give you some credit-of sorts: you lay your moral relativistic cards on the table, unlike most leftists at CE. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| If you are pro-choice, fine, but I don't see how you can be pro-choice and agree that abortion is murder. |
I explained it already. I'll try again. Murder is not always wrong.
There. |
Is that the official stance of any government you know of? I believe killing can be justified in cases of self-defense and other cases perhaps, but that is not called, "murder."
Saying, "Murder is not always wrong," does not explain anything. It only raises more questions. It is also a scary phrase. With that same phrase, the Chinese government can completely justify their actions.
Oh, and since you used the phrase, "murder is not always wrong" in the context of your statement that you are pro-choice and that abortion is murder, you are basically arguing that murder is not wrong in millions of instances every year. I guess "real men" love both peace and justifiable murder.
Last edited by flakfizer on Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
You really want to infer that there are absolutes in this world? You really want to go there? |
Why not? You seem to implying so yourself. You seem to condemn the actions of others in another culture different from your own. |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| Alyallen wrote: |
You really want to infer that there are absolutes in this world? You really want to go there? |
Why not? You seem to implying so yourself. You seem to condemn the actions of others in another culture different from your own. |
Huh?
I posted the story, highlighted what I felt was either relevant or eye catching and pretty much stayed out the fray. I made the comment asking why they didn't just fine her and her husband since it was their first child and leave it at that. I don't remember condemning any culture...
It's an interesting story since there seems to be little legal recourse in a country like China so the fact that this couple has tried shows how things have changed in China. Do I think abortion is wrong? No, but it can't be right when it's forced on someone...That's what's so strange about this story. So yes, "murder" if that's what you want to call an abortion, sometimes is not always wrong but in this instance I can't say that it was right either.... |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| Alyallen wrote: |
You really want to infer that there are absolutes in this world? You really want to go there? |
Why not? You seem to implying so yourself. You seem to condemn the actions of others in another culture different from your own. |
Huh?
I posted the story, highlighted what I felt was either relevant or eye catching and pretty much stayed out the fray. I made the comment asking why they didn't just fine her and her husband since it was their first child and leave it at that. I don't remember condemning any culture...
It's an interesting story since there seems to be little legal recourse in a country like China so the fact that this couple has tried shows how things have changed in China. Do I think abortion is wrong? No, but it can't be right when it's forced on someone...That's what's so strange about this story. So yes, "murder" if that's what you want to call an abortion, sometimes is not always wrong but in this instance I can't say that it was right either.... |
Just to be clear, I did not call abortion murder (though I do think that). It was bobster who said that he agrees that abortion is murder, but that murder is not always wrong.
Also, I didn't say you condemned a culture, I said you seemed to condemn an action done by people in a different culture.
Anyway, perhaps you didn't come right out and condemn the act, but do you think the act is, in fact, condemnable? I'm curious because of your response to another poster about absolutes. Without them, I'm not sure how a person in one culture could make any kind of moral judgement regarding an act perpetrated by others in another culture. But, perhaps no judgement is being made by you.
P.S. Perhaps this story will inspire to think of a new slogan for China.  |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| Alyallen wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| Alyallen wrote: |
You really want to infer that there are absolutes in this world? You really want to go there? |
Why not? You seem to implying so yourself. You seem to condemn the actions of others in another culture different from your own. |
Huh?
I posted the story, highlighted what I felt was either relevant or eye catching and pretty much stayed out the fray. I made the comment asking why they didn't just fine her and her husband since it was their first child and leave it at that. I don't remember condemning any culture...
It's an interesting story since there seems to be little legal recourse in a country like China so the fact that this couple has tried shows how things have changed in China. Do I think abortion is wrong? No, but it can't be right when it's forced on someone...That's what's so strange about this story. So yes, "murder" if that's what you want to call an abortion, sometimes is not always wrong but in this instance I can't say that it was right either.... |
Just to be clear, I did not call abortion murder (though I do think that). It was bobster who said that he agrees that abortion is murder, but that murder is not always wrong.
Also, I didn't say you condemned a culture, I said you seemed to condemn an action done by people in a different culture.
Anyway, perhaps you didn't come right out and condemn the act, but do you think the act is, in fact, condemnable? I'm curious because of your response to another poster about absolutes. Without them, I'm not sure how a person in one culture could make any kind of moral judgement regarding an act perpetrated by others in another culture. But, perhaps no judgement is being made by you.
P.S. Perhaps this story will inspire to think of a new slogan for China. |
There is no perhaps. I didn't make a moral judgement about the act. I made a comment based on what I thought seemed most logical based on the parameters of the laws in place in China. I didn't say "That's her baby! She should keep it even if those commie bastards say she shouldn't." I didn't for one instance view that very sad incident in the framework of U.S. Law and policy. It may make me view it in a less than glowing sense but it's not for me to condemn. That's the point of the story and why I choose to put it up on this forum: that there are people in China willing to make this come to light and it shouldn't be ignored. |
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Masta_Don
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Hyehwa-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
Is that the official stance of any government you know of? I believe killing can be justified in cases of self-defense and other cases perhaps, but that is not called, "murder." |
Every country that has gone to war. That's a lot of murder.
But then again, you're playing semantics and pretend to not see that murder and killing are the same thing. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Masta_Don wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
Is that the official stance of any government you know of? I believe killing can be justified in cases of self-defense and other cases perhaps, but that is not called, "murder." |
Every country that has gone to war. That's a lot of murder.
But then again, you're playing semantics and pretend to not see that murder and killing are the same thing. |
I have a million responses to this and yet they would all be wasted. If you think killing and murder are the same thing, we come from different planets. Now if you'll excuse me, a mosquito is bothering me and I'm off to murder it. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I see where Flakfizer is coming from, although I think he's wrong about the mosquitos ... if I've read correctly, his point is that calling an act "murder" implies a condemnation of that act (unless you're speaking in strictly legal terms). Saying "murder isn't always wrong" is an abuse of the English language and an assault on logic. But that's business as usual at Dave's, isn't it? |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: Abortion |
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The only time capital punishment (ie murder by the State) is justified, is for heinious mass murder crimes by the likes of Timothy McVeigh. But even in these cases, there needs to be watertight evidence of guilt. There have been several cases of innocent people being wrongly executed by the State.
Most countries have abolished the death penalty which is probably a good thing. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Abortion |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
The only time capital punishment (ie murder by the State) is justified, is for heinious mass murder crimes by the likes of Timothy McVeigh. But even in these cases, there needs to be watertight evidence of guilt. There have been several cases of innocent people being wrongly executed by the State.
Most countries have abolished the death penalty which is probably a good thing. |
If you call it "murder by the State," you're representing yourself as a death penalty opponent. Since you're not one, why do you want to confuse people? |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: |
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This is all somewhat irrelevant...at least to me...
If someone told me that I had to have a baby that I didn't want or that I had to abort a baby I did want, both actions are against my will. That is what saddens me about this story. That and the very late term abortion under such traumatizing circumstances....
But I'll leave the rest to bicker over murder versus killing and la di da.... |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: Abortion |
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| I know the original topic was abortion, but the topic of murder by the state came up, in another post, & perhaps others would like to comment on capital punishment as well? Australia abolished the death penalty in 1965 so it's not an issue here. But many states in the USA still have it. My point was that innocent people can & do get executed in error by the State, so perhaps the death penalty should be abolished there, too? |
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