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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Dome Vans Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: EPIK inconsistencies |
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I have a friend who's just wanted to re-sign for his public school.
He was given a pay raise from 2.2 to 2.4 in April.
ALthough his original contract was for 2.2, there was no written agreement for the pay raise. 5 teachers in total were given this pay raise.
But now other provinces complained about our excellent contracts so now to put us more in line with the other provinces the whole EPIK scale has been shaken up. The 1+ level has disappeared and has been replaced with 1++. BUt the pay for this level has dropped. And the pay for the other scales has changed as well.
Back to the problem. He was told he would have to pay back the extra 200 000 he'd recd every month since april. So about 1 million Won. Can they do this? Is there anything that can be done about this. He'd be happy to re-sign even with the pay-cuts. But the 1 million won was the real kick in the balls. Any ideas? |
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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That doesn't sound right. Pay them back? Change his pay? Fk them.
You snooze, you lose. Fk 'em.
I'd take them to the labor board if they tried that *beep*. Then they'd have to continue paying me the 2.4 until it is resolved. And the resolution would be that they'd have to continue paying me that.
And someone could just be trying to embezzle the money. Never know. |
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Dome Vans Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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The thing is the school wants him to re-sign and they say it is out of their hands with paying back the money.
Apparently the whole EPIK scale has been redone, so all the provinces are more or less in line with each other. Has anyone who re-signed recently been told about a pay cut if they re-sign?
Our province has always been known for it's very generous contracts. I've heard that other provinces are dropping their pay for teachers, think they are using the new scales as a reason to drop their pay even further.
What I find strange is they gave them the raise in April. Which a.obviously they took and b. they had to take. And the fact now they are being told to pay it back is ridiculous, but could this be a labour board issue? |
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Dome Vans wrote: |
The thing is the school wants him to re-sign and they say it is out of their hands with paying back the money.
Apparently the whole EPIK scale has been redone, so all the provinces are more or less in line with each other. Has anyone who re-signed recently been told about a pay cut if they re-sign?
Our province has always been known for it's very generous contracts. I've heard that other provinces are dropping their pay for teachers, think they are using the new scales as a reason to drop their pay even further.
What I find strange is they gave them the raise in April. Which a.obviously they took and b. they had to take. And the fact now they are being told to pay it back is ridiculous, but could this be a labour board issue? |
Sure it's a labor board issue.
Did they start their current contracts in April? I'm confused. You're talking about them re-signing. When? Next April? Did they give them a raise in the middle of their contracts? |
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Dome Vans Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
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They were given a pay raise in the middle of their contracts. This is now know is not allowed from this debacle. So basically the OoE made a mistake and have asked for the money back.
He started his contract in September last year.
It was the OoE mistake. They gave the raise. But because now he is wanting to re-sign for another year they have hit him with wanting the money back.
That's my only prob with it. Their error shouldn't affect him. |
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Who's the OoE? |
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laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Location: somewhere in Korea
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Even in this country, I can't see how that is legal. That would be breaking the contract. Make sure your friend doesn't sign anything, because if he agreed then there would be a problem.
What is it with this country? Let's try to get better teachers and retain them by forcing unnecessary work time (holidays), cutting holdiays and cutting pay. To be honest, it's usually not the schools at all, it's always the higher ups of whatever organization you work for. I hate confucianism, and so does every young Korean I know I hope it dies with the next generation. |
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:58 am Post subject: |
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laogaiguk wrote: |
Even in this country, I can't see how that is legal. That would be breaking the contract. Make sure your friend doesn't sign anything, because if he agreed then there would be a problem.
What is it with this country? Let's try to get better teachers and retain them by forcing unnecessary work time (holidays), cutting holdiays and cutting pay. To be honest, it's usually not the schools at all, it's always the higher ups of whatever organization you work for. I hate confucianism, and so does every young Korean I know I hope it dies with the next generation. |
They rose the pay in the middle of his contract. That seems pretty strange to me. Why did they do that?
OP? Why did they give them a raise?
Some people might make the argument that the contract they signed on for this year overrides everything. Some people might argue that you can't change a contract. I'm not so sure this is true. If there's mutual agreement, I dont' see why a contract can't be changed. If there's proof and signatures then that makes it all the more concrete. Keeping in my though that you must follow the rule of the law.
The fact that they gave you a raise, there were too many people involved (witnesses), and it's already said and done, I'd say that his friend and co-workers don't have to pay the money back, but that they can change it back to the way it was originally supposed to be. The cost of the overpayment should not be the teachers' burden. It's the school board's fault. They can say, "Hey wait! These people were not supposed to do that!", but the fault lies in the person who is at fault. It's not the teachers' fault.
It's a pretty tricky thing. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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There's a bit of difference between working for a private employer and working for the city or provinicial government. A private employer does not need any permission to offer you an increase in your pay and, if you accept that offer, then you and the employer will sign a modification to your original contract.
On the other hand, the individual offering a government employee an increase in pay must have legal authority to do that. Absent that authority, the new contract is not legal. The employee who is faced with recoupment of funds disbursed to them without lawful authority can, of course, go to the Labor Board or even the courts to attempt to keep the funds. |
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: |
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CentralCali wrote: |
There's a bit of difference between working for a private employer and working for the city or provinicial government. A private employer does not need any permission to offer you an increase in your pay and, if you accept that offer, then you and the employer will sign a modification to your original contract.
On the other hand, the individual offering a government employee an increase in pay must have legal authority to do that. Absent that authority, the new contract is not legal. The employee who is faced with recoupment of funds disbursed to them without lawful authority can, of course, go to the Labor Board or even the courts to attempt to keep the funds. |
Of course. The decision however was made by the government to increase their pay. Therefore their pay was increased.
Anyway, who knows????? Like I said, kidn of tricky. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Racial Superiority Is the Problem
by Han Kyung-koo, Chosun Ilbo (August 29, 2007)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200708/200708290007.html
Have you been paid late in Korea?
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=18732
Late pay... worth the wait?
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=37989
Do Foreigners have Human Rights, in Korea?
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=51789
Foreigners Experience Difficulties in Living in Korea
Quote: |
An official in the International Cooperation Division of Seoul City admitted, "The same complaints regarding visas, transportation, education, and environment are raised every year without being solved, due to the lack of cooperation from government agencies involved and their passive attitudes." |
by Jae-Dong Yu and Soo-Jung Shin, Donga.com (July 4, 2004)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448
Employers want to control you.
EdInstead wrote: |
Those of you who live here long enough (and are actually teaching here) will learn that Korea is all about control and hierarchy. Korean employees are also treated like servants, and cannot easily go from job-to-job. It's their way. If a Korean leaves a job quickly, that record follows them for the rest of their lives.
Bosses have always counted on that fact, and can easily mistreat their workers for at least a year (which is often the minimum Korean employees will put up with hell). It truly is an owner-slave mentality. Rarely will a Korean leave a job in under a year, or even two. They will endure it, just so they don't have it on their record that they left early. Bosses play this for all it's worth. Bosses even want control over that employee after they have left (release letters, recommendations, etc.). It's all about power-tripping and confucist ego.
Foreigners are different. We don't care, can get another teaching job the same day, and will quickly go elsewhere if mistreated. This disrupts the whole system, and quite frankly, is not something Koreans are mentally prepared to deal with. The realization that they don't have control over the employee is just too much for their pride to handle.
It's the same with immigration. And quite frankly, if they allowed you to come and go from jobs as you pleased, they would have to increase their staff ten-fold due to all of the sucky employers here, and people leaving.
Posted: August 11, 2006
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=63407
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Korea is all up to the individual. I know what I can get. Do you? |
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Pak Yu Man

Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Location: The Ida galaxy
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Maybe your friend's boss gave him the extra $$ hoping he could pocket it himself. |
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Dome Vans Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
The cost of the overpayment should not be the teachers' burden. It's the school board's fault. They can say, "Hey wait! These people were not supposed to do that!", but the fault lies in the person who is at fault. It's not the teachers' fault. |
This is my problem with it. As I said he was happy to re-sign but this was a kick in the nads.
OoE - Is the Office of Education. As we are with EPIK these are our bosses.
From what I understand you sign the contract and that is for the year. The pay raise was in the middle of the contract and verbally agreed. BUt with the new re-structuring of EPIK this was classed as over paying the teachers. Other provinces complained about our good pay system.
My problem with this is that it's no business of other provinces what OUR Office of education does with their budget. If they want to pay the teachers well, that's their perogative. As long as they don't go over budget. Which they haven't done. It's jealously from other provinces, we have a very high rate of teachers re-signing for second/third years etc.
This surely only has a positive effect on the students and the province. Teachers are happy and the students get a few years with the same teacher. Which provides consistency.
This pay raise was agreed from the Office of Education with these teachers but was verbal only. And has been paid no problem over the last few months, as agreed.
From speaking with other expericenced teachers here, raises are only negotiable at the end of the contract, after one year. This came in the middle. So the teachers contracts show 2 million basic, and then there is the 'sticks' bonus (200 000 won) on top. They were basically moved up a level in the middle of the contract, not contractual, but were paid as such.
I don't think the OoE did it maliciously. They made a mistake. But I don't see how the teachers are the ones who have to make up for their error.
It's still an excellent contract but these little mishaps make you think about the mixed messages coming from higher up the ladder. I mean higher up than my Office of Education.
As I said, this doesn't affect me, I've been in this province for 3 months and have my contract stating 2.2 and then there's the extra 200 000. So this won't affect me. But it's always a bummer when it happens to your friends. |
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yingwenlaoshi

Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: ... location, location!
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Pak Yu Man wrote: |
Maybe your friend's boss gave him the extra $$ hoping he could pocket it himself. |
That's what I'm saying. |
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