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demaratus
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old
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 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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The Miami 'exile" community is a simple lobby group with the same moral clout as the Tobacco companies. They are a selfish bunch who are very much resented by the average Cuban citizen. Their b.s. lobby is the main reason why the embargo has been maintained. The embargo is Castro's best piece of ammo in his political rhetoric, without it how could he continue to keep the support of his people? I have beeen to Cuba twice (resorts once, casa's once) and can tell you that people genuinly believe Castro is their savior and have a profound respect for him. Older Cubans especially revere the man. For the record few Cubans hate Americans, like many other nations they just really hate the government, esp the pandering to the exile community. I have met alot Americans in Cuba (all in Casa's, bars or cigar shops), the Cuban government welcomes them and their dollars into the country, the US gov doesn't seem to like this though.
I would really encourage all who can, or are adventurous enough to travel to Cuba before Castro dies, it is a beautiful country with great people.
Last edited by demaratus on Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| bejarano-korea wrote: |
| Fresh Prince wrote: |
| I'm curious as to why so many Cubans build makeshift rafts and attempt to float to the U.S. every year. |
Thats probably to do with the bullying economic blockade the Americans have enforced on the planet in relation to trading with Cuba. Reducing the majority of Cubans into poverty.
Castro has made various US administrations lose face and look stupid and the Americans respond the only way they know how. With money and economic power.
And the average American/Miami Cuban thinks they will be recieved with open arms the day the Castro regime collapses? Think again!  |
Another useful idiot.
Anyway, I'm sure if America takes the whole process peacefully there won't be any problems. I don't see how Cubans wouldn't welcome American dollars. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Bejarano wrote:
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| Yes the US prevents all trade with Cuba. |
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| Castro is selling land like mad to the Spanish. |
Umm, okay. |
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demaratus
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| The embargo was designed to isolate Cuba, for this purpose it has largely failed. Also I don't know about the "Cuba selling land" argument either as the Cuban government doesn't sell land per-se but leases land to businesses with govenment co-operation, aka joint ventures with the government. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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So, you believe that all trade with Cuba is prevented, and you want to comment on this issue with any authority, eh? Yes. I'm the prat.
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| Good! read it all you right wing, reactionary prat. Read what I have said again. |
What you said: "the US prevents all trade with Cuba.". This isn't true. At all.
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| Fortuenatley the Cuban people |
"The Cuban people" is a collectivist lie. There is no such thing as the "Cuban people" There are millions of people all who have different opinions. Some have bought the communist propaganda and some haven't. The revolution requires an enemy to survive and, just like you believe in it, and some believe in god, some people are just so gawddamn dumb that they will believe all that they are told.
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| aren't stupid and know that America has been |
"America" has been? Another collectivist lie. Differing American Presidents for differing reasons of varying validity have at different times behaved in a hostile way towards the Cuban government.
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The Soviet Union? its history! but the blockade still goes on! Yes the US prevents all trade with Cuba. (present tense) Why?
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Blockade? All trade? You are a bloody fool.
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Cuba is, right now, free to trade with just about every other country in the world, yet it's still a pit of economic misery for most of its citizens. |
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/06/cuba_libre.cfm
Unless you live in a world of two states..
The Soviet Union and now Venezuela and others have dumped tens of billions of dollars into Cuba with near zero benefit. Castro is loved by many, as he is, because he has been able to distract many Cuban people away from the real cause of their poverty (him) and blame it on others. What is really pathetic is that someone from a free nation with free information bought this nonsense too. You should be embarrassed.
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The general mismanagment of the islands economy? they have no facking money you prat.
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Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God?
Capitalism. Effective government. Effective institutions. Proper regulations. Education that serves a market purpose.
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The only trading partners they did have was the Warsaw pact (with China, N.Korea etc) and that ended in 1989 (with gradual withdrawl of economic support from perestroika onwards) |
Are you serious? Who told you that? You need to learn the difference between an embargo and a blockade.
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Where did the tens of billions in Soviet support go?
What? in 20 years? Its chicken feed to the running of a country? How much are the Americans spending in Iraq for 1 year? Its more than 10s of billions mate! |
I'm not your mate you uneducated tool. That aside, Iraq has nothing to do with Castro running his poor island into the ground. Nothing at all. Nice try tho. Aye.
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I thought you were meant to be some expert on economics? fack off you prat! Rolling Eyes |
Yes. I am. It is my education and my job. For you, I suspect it is a mystery. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| demaratus wrote: |
| The Miami 'exile" community is a simple lobby group with the same moral clout as the Tobacco companies. They are a selfish bunch who are very much resented by the average Cuban citizen. |
That is extremely unfair. You can't whole-sale buy the lies of a totalitarian country and repeat them.
80% of my future in laws a Cuban exiles. Some arrived in America by plane and others on boats and others still on foot from Mexico. They all despise Castro for what he did to their country. They all, however, don't hold the extreme views that Castro and his limpdic.k commie apologists assign them. They are a diverse lot. Last time I was in Miami I had the awkward experience of being the first "American" (I'm not) that a fresh off the raft Cuban had spoken to (through my girl). He knew fully nothing of substance about Western culture, America or the world around him as it is. He just wanted a job. A future. Like the thousands of NKoreans who escape other commie crapshoot. He is now a Cuban exile living in Miami. And privileged naive White Western people who should gawddamn know better compare their opinions to those of tobacco companies.
The extent to which naive Westerners have bought the propaganda form totalitarian regimes is damn scary. I think you all should apply the same cynicism to the claims of faux revolutionaries that you do to a speech by GWB. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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So, you believe that all trade with Cuba is prevented, and you want to comment on this issue with any authority, eh? Yes. I'm the prat.
What you said: "the US prevents all trade with Cuba.". This isn't true. At all. |
There is a worldwide embargo against Cuba which the United States tries to impose sanctions on. simply put the americans declare 'trade wars' on countires who don't toe the line. You'll know about the Helms Burton Act, there you have a read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act
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| "The Cuban people" is a collectivist lie. There is no such thing as the "Cuban people" There are millions of people all who have different opinions. Some have bought the communist propaganda and some haven't. The revolution requires an enemy to survive and, just like you believe in it, and some believe in god, some people are just so gawddamn dumb that they will believe all that they are told. |
Sure, one that Cubans of all races believe in is that America is not their friend and if you think you and yuor rabid Miami anti-Castro lobbies are marching into Havana when Castro croaks it then you are an idiot.
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| "America" has been? Another collectivist lie. Differing American Presidents for differing reasons of varying validity have at different times behaved in a hostile way towards the Cuban government. |
You are joking, the only difference all US govrements have had is the level of hostility, this is the longest running embargo in history.
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Blockade? All trade? You are a bloody fool.
Cuba is, right now, free to trade with just about every other country in the world, yet it's still a pit of economic misery for most of its citizens.
Unless you live in a world of two states.. |
And risk having the bullying american regime sanction a trade war against them? Go and tell it to someone else Adolf!
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| The Soviet Union and now Venezuela and others have dumped tens of billions of dollars into Cuba with near zero benefit. Castro is loved by many, as he is, because he has been able to distract many Cuban people away from the real cause of their poverty (him) and blame it on others. What is really pathetic is that someone from a free nation with free information bought this nonsense too. You should be embarrassed. |
The Soviet Union (over 20 years ago) and the Chavez regime (in the past 5 years) and Venuzuela has not dumped 10s of billions of dollars into Cuba, the Venuzuelan economy cannot afford to 'dump' 10s of billions of dollars into Cuba, the americans are stopping Cuba from trading by intimidation like the cowardl shytehawk they really are.
http://biopact.com/2007/03/cuba-and-venezuela-agree-to-build-11.html
Venuzuelan aid to Cuba - 1 billion dollars - not a lot, especially with the tumbling value of the dollar!
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| Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God? |
Lets solve the problem? print more money?  Where did you get yuor economics degree? The university of brazzaville?
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| Capitalism. Effective government. Effective institutions. Proper regulations. Education that serves a market purpose. |
Can we all have that without American interference?
Will there be any of the above without ignorant, avenging Cuban Americans coming over wanting their pound of flesh? You know the anwser son!
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| Are you serious? Who told you that? You need to learn the difference between an embargo and a blockade. |
Same facking difference. You are losing when you are arguing on semantics
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| I'm not your mate you uneducated tool. That aside, Iraq has nothing to do with Castro running his poor island into the ground. Nothing at all. Nice try tho. Aye. |
Nah you aren't my mate, you shouln't take endearments from people online so seriously, you are a thick typically reactionary halfwitted prat. very predicatable and boring.
The spending in the war in Iraq is just used as a comparison. You seem to
think 10s of billions is a fortune in running a country when it is nothing.
The war in Iraq/Afghanistan for 1 year costs something like 175 billion dollars!
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| Yes. I am. It is my education and my job. For you, I suspect it is a mystery. |
Your education? well the professors at the university of brazzaville have not taught you well have they.
Bottom line.
When Castro dies: Cuba is going to go on he road to democracy/capitalism.
The vast majority of Cubans do not want the Americans there.
They do not want the rabid Miami Cubans there wanting revenge.
The Miami Cubans are not going to get their land and property back.
Here is a proper website you should read. Doubt that you will so your glaring ignorance will continue.
http://www.cubavsbloqueo.cu/Default.aspx?tabid=1012
Last edited by bejarano-korea on Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| demaratus wrote: |
| The embargo was designed to isolate Cuba, for this purpose it has largely failed. Also I don't know about the "Cuba selling land" argument either as the Cuban government doesn't sell land per-se but leases land to businesses with govenment co-operation, aka joint ventures with the government. |
And who do you think is going to 'own' those buisinesses when Castro (and thus the whole govermental infrastructure) dies? It will be those nice chaps in Madrid. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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There is a worldwide embargo against Cuba which the United States tries to impose sanctions on. simply put the americans declare 'trade wars' on countires who don't toe the line. You'll know about the Helms Burton Act, there you have a read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act |
toe the line or do bad stuff?
at any rate the US doesn't have to trade w/ anyone they don't want to. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| And who do you think is going to 'own' those buisinesses when Castro (and thus the whole govermental infrastructure) dies? It will be those nice chaps in Madrid. |
But how is it that the US(or so you claim) has been able to shut down all trade with Cuba, but they somehow neglected to prevent Spaniards from leasing land? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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1) Cuba trades heavily with the non-American world.
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| Before 1959, the United States was Cuba's most important trading partner, a natural development due to its geographic proximity. That relationship ended in 1960 with the U.S. trade embargo. Cuba then courted the Soviet Union and its Eastern European allies to become its primary trading partners. Due to the strict economic organization of the Communist system, only 50 Cuban companies were allowed to participate in foreign trade until 1987. After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, Cuba was soon trading with a number of countries, including Spain, France, Italy, Mexico, Canada, Russia, the Netherlands, and Venezuela. About 40 percent of Cuba's trade is within the Americas and 50 percent is with Europe. Main imports include fuel, food, semi-finished goods, wheat, vegetables, machinery, feed, and corn. Main exports are sugar, fish, nickel, medicinal products, and fruit. |
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Cuba-INTERNATIONAL-TRADE.html
2) Venezuala is trading, giving aid and loaning billions and billions to Cuba.
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She added that bilateral co-operation between the two countries has been increasing steadily since the year 2000: in that year, 31 projects worth US$28.5 million were agreed on, whereas in 2007 some 355 projects were established, valued at US$1.5 billion. Direct Venezuelan aid to Cuba will amount to US$1 billion this year. |
http://biopact.com/2007/03/cuba-and-venezuela-agree-to-build-11.html
3) The Soviets dumped tens of billions into Cuba.
http://www.iie.com/research/topics/sanctions/cuba3.cfm
4) Read the OP.
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Whatever happens next is anyone's guess. Two of the possible scenarios -- radical economic restructuring under communist rule or a democratic transition -- could pose different challenges to Latin America.
** While still a dictatorship, a relatively prosperous Cuba -- with less pronounced inequalities than elsewhere -- might best the economic performance of Latin American democracies.
** A democratic Cuba -- where freedom abets national reconciliation -- may reveal uncomfortable truths about the revolution's human costs, which many Latin Americans, particularly on the Left, have yet to recognize.
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Do those options constitute an American invasion? Can. You. Read? Do they teach you to read in whatever white-trash chav sh.ithole you grew up in? Daddy was in the mine and couldn't afford the books, perhaps?
5) Making reference to the University of brazzaville, which may or may not exist, as inherently very bad, is inherently very racist.
6) A blockade and an embargo are not semantic differences.
You should not discuss things you do not know anything about. You are embarrassing yourself. Drunk posting, as well, is a bit silly. |
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demaratus
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| demaratus wrote: |
| The Miami 'exile" community is a simple lobby group with the same moral clout as the Tobacco companies. They are a selfish bunch who are very much resented by the average Cuban citizen. |
That is extremely unfair. You can't whole-sale buy the lies of a totalitarian country and repeat them.
80% of my future in laws a Cuban exiles. Some arrived in America by plane and others on boats and others still on foot from Mexico. They all despise Castro for what he did to their country. They all, however, don't hold the extreme views that Castro and his limpdic.k commie apologists assign them. They are a diverse lot. Last time I was in Miami I had the awkward experience of being the first "American" (I'm not) that a fresh off the raft Cuban had spoken to (through my girl). He knew fully nothing of substance about Western culture, America or the world around him as it is. He just wanted a job. A future. Like the thousands of NKoreans who escape other commie crapshoot. He is now a Cuban exile living in Miami. And privileged naive White Western people who should gawddamn know better compare their opinions to those of tobacco companies.
The extent to which naive Westerners have bought the propaganda form totalitarian regimes is damn scary. I think you all should apply the same cynicism to the claims of faux revolutionaries that you do to a speech by GWB. |
You say I buy into the wholesale lies of a totalitarian government. Tell me where and when Castro has admitted the embargo is an excuse for his existance? Or I suppose every person I spoke with in Cuba was a government operative? Hmm Perhaps it is you who has bought into the propaganda.
What I said was fair, and you need to read before you criticize. The Exile lobby has sponsered terrorism against the Cuban nation. They continue to be the driving force behing the embargo which does nothing but make life difficult for Cuban citizens and continues to give Castro an excuse for his nations poverty. If the exile lobby really cared about Cuba and Cuban people they would encourage trade and dialouge between the US and Cuba rather than support a repressive policy that benefits Castro. Of course many Cubans come top the United States for better opportunities, hell a bartender at a fancy resort makes way more money than a doctor in Cuba, it is natural to want more for themselves and their families. The exile community doesn't include all Cubans, it refers to the lobby group comprised of people who lost their businesses and property after the revolution. They Support the embargo out of their own greedy interests, plain and simple.
What do priveldged white people have to do with anything? What about disadvantaged white people, upper class black people or middle class Asians? lol.
I know everything is not roses and sunshine in Cuba, I have seen the country from Pinar to Trinidad. There are lots of poor people, racism is still a problem, women are eploited much like southeast asia and most people live in a state of poverty. I am not a Castro apologist, but most Cubans in Cuba love the man, his faults and all. And if you know anything about Cuban history you might understand why.
I haven't bought propaganda at all. I have spoken with many Cubans in Cuba though and they do resent the US gov because of the embargo. They don't hate America or Americans though. Castro effectively uses the embargo as a tool to not only gain support for himself but also to put egg in the face of the US government who he can blame because of it. If you really believe that the exile lobby is better than a tobacco lobby, explain why?
Last edited by demaratus on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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demaratus
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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BJWD, you obviously have your opinions, and if you want people to listen to them why would you resort to name calling?
With regards to your last post. You said that Cuba trades heavily with the non American world. True, in fact they trade with many american nations except the USA. The Aid given by Venezuela is massive, you are correct. But you fail to mention that Cuba has reciprocated this aid with human resources mainly doctors and teachers from their highly educated population to aid and in train Venezuela where there are not a lot of doctors, literacy is low and they desperatley need teachers. Put a price tag on the human capital Cuba has reciprocated to them?
About the Soviets and aid, you are again correct. When the Soviets pulled out it nearly ruined Castro's Cuba, the years after the Soviets pulled out is called the "special period". In my opinion, this would have been the best time to end the embargo and promote trade to usher in capitalism, but the exiles wouldn't have that, unless their claims were met. To the exiles, a free Cuba is only a good thing if they can benefit from it. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 1) Cuba trades heavily with the non-American world. |
It is not and whoever trades with them are under threat from American economic sanctions! Simple as that!
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2) Venezuala is trading, giving aid and loaning billions and billions to Cuba.
She added that bilateral co-operation between the two countries has been increasing steadily since the year 2000: in that year, 31 projects worth US$28.5 million were agreed on, whereas in 2007 some 355 projects were established, valued at US$1.5 billion. Direct Venezuelan aid to Cuba will amount to US$1 billion this year. |
A few billion is not 'billions and billions' and a few billion is not enough to run a country, again it costs the US taxpyer 175 billion dollars for a years warfare in Iraq.
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| 3) The Soviets dumped tens of billions into Cuba. |
History son - The warsaw pact was able to stand up to US bullying and when the warsaw pact broke up so did the aid-trade agreements.
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| Whatever happens next is anyone's guess. Two of the possible scenarios -- radical economic restructuring under communist rule or a democratic transition -- could pose different challenges to Latin America. |
More than likely the latter.
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| ** While still a dictatorship, a relatively prosperous Cuba -- with less pronounced inequalities than elsewhere -- might best the economic performance of Latin American democracies |
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Thats a joke. You don't make the US lose face countless times and keep hold of your dictatorship, there are a load of bitter, ignorant fools in Miami who want their hacienda back and they want it NOW!
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| ** A democratic Cuba -- where freedom abets national reconciliation -- may reveal uncomfortable truths about the revolution's human costs, which many Latin Americans, particularly on the Left, have yet to recognize. |
Of course and what about the role of he United States in the whole affair?
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| Do those options constitute an American invasion? Can. You. Read? Do they teach you to read in whatever white-trash chav sh.ithole you grew up in? Daddy was in the mine and couldn't afford the books, perhaps? |
You are a bigger idiot than you are now if you don't think the US (espcially under Bush) administration will be in there like Flynn when Castro croaks it! Wherever military or otherwise.
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| 5) Making reference to the University of brazzaville, which may or may not exist, as inherently very bad, is inherently very racist. |
Somewhere with a tinpot economy would have been a perfect place for you to study, it could have easily been the university of Chisnau, no racism intended except you see racism everywhere becaue you are an all round bigot
Your idea of economics - get richer - print more money! lol! 
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| 6) A blockade and an embargo are not semantic differences. |
Go away, find the meanings of the word 'blockade' and 'emabrgo' and then comeback and tell me that you are not arguing over semantics.
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| You should not discuss things you do not know anything about. You are embarrassing yourself. Drunk posting, as well, is a bit silly. |
And you are sober and still posting shyte! whats your excuse! 
Last edited by bejarano-korea on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:32 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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History son - The warsaw pact was able to stand up to US bullying and when the warsaw pact broke up so did the aid-trade agreements. |
Yes that great organization to protect the world from the US. |
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