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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Someone asked where Soviet funds to Havana went. I do not know how much aid there was. But it was no small amount.
It modernized the Cuban Air Force for one. MiGs. It modernized and expanded the Cuban armed forces and security services as a whole, for another. Castro fought wars all over Africa, and for several decades. He also trained, supported, and equipped Latin-American and Caribbean guerrillas and other militants from El Salvador to Chile.
Most of the Soviet funds Castro recieved then, went into military spending out-of-all-proportion to Cuba's place in world affairs. In exchange, the Soviets got discounted sugar and no small amount of headaches...It is clear to us now that the Soviets saw Castro more as a political and economic liability than an asset, and this from an early date in Soviet-Cuban relations. He and his Latin-American allies were far more extreme and antiAmerican than Moscow ever was. Too bad, then, that FDR did not respond to Castro's letter, send him the ten-dollar bill he wanted, and then arrange for a try-out with the Yankees.
This being said, there is something to admire about Castro's revolutionary idealism in the early 1960s. Complex man. I hope his passing goes painlessly for him. And I hope Cubans on Cuba and in Miami will quietly transition to the next era -- although I doubt it will unfold that way. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bejarano-korea wrote: |
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| 1) Cuba trades heavily with the non-American world. |
It is not and whoever trades with them are under threat from American economic sanctions! Simple as that!
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2) Venezuala is trading, giving aid and loaning billions and billions to Cuba.
She added that bilateral co-operation between the two countries has been increasing steadily since the year 2000: in that year, 31 projects worth US$28.5 million were agreed on, whereas in 2007 some 355 projects were established, valued at US$1.5 billion. Direct Venezuelan aid to Cuba will amount to US$1 billion this year. |
A few billion is not 'billions and billions' and a few billion is not enough to run a country, again it costs the US taxpyer 175 billion dollars for a years warfare in Iraq.
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| 3) The Soviets dumped tens of billions into Cuba. |
History son - The warsaw pact was able to stand up to US bullying and when the warsaw pact broke up so did the aid-trade agreements.
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| Whatever happens next is anyone's guess. Two of the possible scenarios -- radical economic restructuring under communist rule or a democratic transition -- could pose different challenges to Latin America. |
More than likely the latter.
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| ** While still a dictatorship, a relatively prosperous Cuba -- with less pronounced inequalities than elsewhere -- might best the economic performance of Latin American democracies |
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Thats a joke. You don't make the US lose face countless times and keep hold of your dictatorship, there are a load of bitter, ignorant fools in Miami who want their hacienda back and they want it NOW!
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| ** A democratic Cuba -- where freedom abets national reconciliation -- may reveal uncomfortable truths about the revolution's human costs, which many Latin Americans, particularly on the Left, have yet to recognize. |
Of course and what about the role of he United States in the whole affair?
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| Do those options constitute an American invasion? Can. You. Read? Do they teach you to read in whatever white-trash chav sh.ithole you grew up in? Daddy was in the mine and couldn't afford the books, perhaps? |
You are a bigger idiot than you are now if you don't think the US (espcially under Bush) administration will be in there like Flynn when Castro croaks it! Wherever military or otherwise.
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| 5) Making reference to the University of brazzaville, which may or may not exist, as inherently very bad, is inherently very racist. |
Somewhere with a tinpot economy would have been a perfect place for you to study, it could have easily been the university of Chisnau, no racism intended except you see racism everywhere becaue you are an all round bigot
Your idea of economics - get richer - print more money! lol! 
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| 6) A blockade and an embargo are not semantic differences. |
Go away, find the meanings of the word 'blockade' and 'emabrgo' and then comeback and tell me that you are not arguing over semantics.
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| You should not discuss things you do not know anything about. You are embarrassing yourself. Drunk posting, as well, is a bit silly. |
And you are sober and still posting shyte! whats your excuse!  |
You do not know what you are talking about at all.
Cuba is poor for the same reasons NK is poor: communism makes people poor. Full stop, end of discussion. Had the US traded with Cuba you and your brainwashed peers would be railing about "economic and cultural imperialism" and begging Cuba to cease trade with the US, as is the case in CAFTA.
A blockade and embargo, when used in an economic sense, refer to two entirely different events. A blockade is when you prevent any trade (which is what you, at the beginning of this thread, prior to my reeducated of you, thought was the case). An embargo forbid the firms and individuals of the country (and colonial properties of) from trading with the state. As we can see, Cuba trades heavily with the world. Just not America. Thus, your first conclusion that Cuba is poor due to the embargo is false. Cuba is poor because Castro finds his poeple most useful in that position.
My illusion to "printing money" was with the same seriousness of Cuba being poor due to "god". Of course. I was making fun of your idiocy in this matter, and apparently that idiocy extends beyond this subject and to your general inability to read (again, reading difficulties are a norm with you). Whatever public polytechnic that provided you with your degree was a through waste of the government money.
In so far as me being an "idiot" (projection, eh?) for thinking that Bush won't launch a full-scale invasion when Castro dies:
1) I made no reference to that
2) The OP makes no reference to that
3) Your paranoia and inability to understand the situation is, again, a sign of your intellectual frailties and paranoia. As in, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't after you, right?
4) Gopher got to my point. The aid goes to the Cuban government and straight into the structures of power that keep Castro alive and in power. The military, securities services and ministry of propaganda (or relevant Cuban agency) were the main beneficiaries. Whereas the ROK built roads, harbors, airports and industry with her aid Castro bought MIGS and you naive little douchbags cheer him on. Lee Kwan built the HDB board with international aid and cash. Japan built Japan. West Germany, Paris and the rest rebuilt. Castro bought tanks and funded terrorist organizations in Latin America.
Cuba is poor because Castro keeps his people that way. Economics can very easily explain why, should you ever wish to apply public choice theory to the situation. Is it better for Castro to rape the whole country in a short time, or to keep the country poor and rape it continuously until he dies? This is the choice KJI, Mugabe, Castro and others made. It is more than a touch naive to start whining about the USA now for actions she might take later, when there is a much greater evil in Cuba now.
D. Doctors for billions are not equal. And those Cuban doctors have a very nasty habit of defecting as well. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| You do not know what you are talking about at all. |
I don't claim to be some hotshot economist, you do and you are talking crap too, whats the deal?
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| Cuba is poor for the same reasons NK is poor: communism makes people poor. Full stop, end of discussion. |
You go and tell the people in the ghettoes in your country, the richest country in the world that 'communism' makes people poor and see what interesting anwsers you get back. In fact, lets do a head count of all the people who are in abject poverty living in capitalist societies.
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| Had the US traded with Cuba you and your brainwashed peers would be railing about "economic and cultural imperialism" and begging Cuba to cease trade with the US, as is the case in CAFTA. |
They do that anyway without Cuba you plank, there are US firms in Vietnam where kids as young as 4 years old are making trainers for pennies a day.
http://www.saigon.com/~nike/childlabor.htm
Now tell me son that is not 'economic imperialism'
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| A blockade and embargo, when used in an economic sense, refer to two entirely different events. A blockade is when you prevent any trade (which is what you, at the beginning of this thread, prior to my reeducated of you, thought was the case). An embargo forbid the firms and individuals of the country (and colonial properties of) from trading with the state. As we can see, Cuba trades heavily with the world. Just not America. Thus, your first conclusion that Cuba is poor due to the embargo is false. Cuba is poor because Castro finds his poeple most useful in that position. |
It does not trade heavily with the world! Stop lying you imbecile! For a tourist destination as popular as Cuba, its GDP is remarkably poor, what does that tell you? Thats right, Fidel is scurrying away with the toursit dollars to bank vaults in Geneva.
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| My illusion to "printing money" was with the same seriousness of Cuba being poor due to "god". |
No, I think you were being serious, you are that dumb and predictable it wouldn't suprise anyone lest myelf.
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| Of course. I was making fun of your idiocy in this matter, and apparently that idiocy extends beyond this subject and to your general inability to read (again, reading difficulties are a norm with you). Whatever public polytechnic that provided you with your degree was a through waste of the government money. |
Unlike your first class education Adolf - a man with an economics degree says and I quote
Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God?
It wasn't meant as a joke you asked two questions at the end of the idiotic statment.
University of Brazzaville son... stop being ashamed of your alumni! 
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| In so far as me being an "idiot" (projection, eh?) |
Projection? statment of fact more like.
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For thinking that Bush won't launch a full-scale invasion when Castro dies:
1) I made no reference to that
2) The OP makes no reference to that
3) Your paranoia and inability to understand the situation is, again, a sign of your intellectual frailties and paranoia. As in, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't after you, right? |
The US goverment says that!
http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/rm/2006/71070.htm
No-one says that it will be a military invasion though with the present GOP I wouldn't be suprised if that happened, US agencies will be in Cuba once Castro dies. No secret is made of the fact and the transition to democracy
in Cuba will be aided and abbetted by the United States wherever the Cubans want them there or not. fact!
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| 4) Gopher got to my point. The aid goes to the Cuban government and straight into the structures of power that keep Castro alive and in power. The military, securities services and ministry of propaganda (or relevant Cuban agency) were the main beneficiaries. Whereas the ROK built roads, harbors, airports and industry with her aid Castro bought MIGS and you naive little douchbags cheer him on. Lee Kwan built the HDB board with international aid and cash. Japan built Japan. West Germany, Paris and the rest rebuilt. Castro bought tanks and funded terrorist organizations in Latin America. |
None of it into tourism? The reasons you blame Castro, you can blame every goverment on the planet. Most goverments would rather buy planes and missiles than build hospitals. You're country is the goddamn same
sending men into space while people are dying because they can't afford health insurance! Thats coming from the rihest nation on the earth.
You are a reactionary hypocrite!
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| Cuba is poor because Castro keeps his people that way. Economics can very easily explain why, should you ever wish to apply public choice theory to the situation. Is it better for Castro to rape the whole country in a short time, or to keep the country poor and rape it continuously until he dies? This is the choice KJI, Mugabe, Castro and others made. It is more than a touch naive to start whining about the USA now for actions she might take later, when there is a much greater evil in Cuba now. |
There is a greater evil in Cuba now? lets do a bodycount between Fidel Castro (or Mugabe, or KJI) in his 48 years of power and Dubya in his 7? Who do you think would win? Thus, who is the more evil?
BJWD: Brainwashd, reactionary, simpleton! |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: |
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double post! 
Last edited by bejarano-korea on Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
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This is going to be fun.
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I don't claim to be some hotshot economist, you do and you are talking crap too, whats the deal?
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1) Not hotshot. Educated and employed. Thousands like me, better than me. If I have ever have a question about how to discipline disrespectful Korean 2nd graders, I'll be sure to send you a PM.
2) What crap? At what point have I been incorrect?
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| You go and tell the people in the ghettoes in your country, the richest country in the world that 'communism' makes people poor and see what interesting anwsers you get back. In fact, lets do a head count of all the people who are in abject poverty living in capitalist societies. |
1) What country is mine?
2) Assuming you are talking of the USA, are poor blacks poor because of their participation in capitalism or their being structurally kept out of capitalism?
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They do that anyway without Cuba you plank, there are US firms in Vietnam where kids as young as 4 years old are making trainers for pennies a day. |
See article posted at the bottom.
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| Now tell me son that is not 'economic imperialism' |
It isn't.
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| It does not trade heavily with the world! |
Yes, it does. Relative to her GDP.
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Stop lying you imbecile! For a tourist destination as popular as Cuba, its GDP is remarkably poor
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Tourism does not build economies. It provides forex for the state, which is why the Cuban government likes it. If the foreign reserves are used to build an economy then that is good. If they are used to maintain the oppressive structures of power, as happens in Cuba, than that is bad.
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, what does that tell you? Thats right, Fidel is scurrying away with the toursit dollars to bank vaults in Geneva.
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Yes, in fact. Castro has Swiss bank accounts. He, like all dictators, must have a slush fund available should he find himself unemployed. But most of the forex goes to other things, I'm sure.
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| No, I think you were being serious, you are that dumb and predictable it wouldn't suprise anyone lest myelf. |
Still drunk? Bloody British.
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| Unlike your first class education Adolf - a man with an economics degree says and I quote |
I'm defending democracy and you call me adolf? Do they teach you history at white-trash U?
I said:
Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God?
You said:
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It wasn't meant as a joke you asked two questions at the end of the idiotic statment. |
So, I was also then being serious that "luck" and "god" are valid reasons for poverty?
I said:
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1) I made no reference to that edit:(invasion)
2) The OP makes no reference to that
3) Your paranoia and inability to understand the situation is, again, a sign of your intellectual frailties and paranoia. As in, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't after you, right? |
You said:
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No-one says that it will be a military invasion though with the present GOP I wouldn't be suprised if that happened,
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In other words, you have no evidence other than bias. Alright.
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US agencies will be in Cuba once Castro dies. No secret is made of the fact and the transition to democracy
in Cuba will be aided and abbetted by the United States wherever the Cubans want them there or not.
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That is right. The US will play a role.
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The reasons you blame Castro, you can blame every goverment on the planet. |
Except Singapore, Botswana, Chile, Japan, ROK, Taiwan, West Germany, France and others.
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Most goverments would rather buy planes and missiles than build hospitals. |
What "most" governments do doesn't excuse what Castro has done. Unless in white-trash land, two wrongs make a right?
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| You're country is the goddamn same |
Not really.
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| sending men into space |
Just a handful, I think. Though, we have a neato arm.
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while people are dying because they can't afford health insurance! Thats coming from the rihest nation on the earth.
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?
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| You are a reactionary hypocrite! |
I'd like you to very clearly explain to me how.
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There is a greater evil in Cuba now? lets do a bodycount between Fidel Castro (or Mugabe, or KJI) in his 48 years of power and Dubya in his 7? Who do you think would win? Thus, who is the more evil?
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Again, do the crimes of Bush excuse the Crimes of Castro or others? Do you live in a universe as morally stunted as that?
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| BJWD: Brainwashd, reactionary, simpleton! |
Yeah!
http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=articles&articleid=53
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Nike. It means victory. It also means a type of expensive gym shoe. In the minds of the anti-globalisation movement, it stands for both at once. Nike stands for the victory of a Western footwear company over the poor and dispossessed. Spongy, smelly, hungered after by kids across the world, Nike is the symbol of the unacceptable triumph of global capital. A Nike is a shoe that simultaneously kicks people out of jobs in the West, and tramples on the poor in the Third World. Sold for 100 times more than the wages of the peons who make them, Nike shoes are hate-objects more potent, in the eyes of the protesters at this week�s G8 riots, than McDonald�s hamburgers. If you want to be trendy these days, you don�t wear Nikes; you boycott them.
So I was interested to hear someone not only praising Nike sweatshops, but also claiming that Nike is an example of a good and responsible business. That someone was the ruling Communist party of Vietnam.
Today Nike has almost four times more workers in Vietnam than in the United States. I travelled to Ho Chi Minh to examine the effects of multinational corporations on poor countries. Nike being the most notorious multinational villain, and Vietnam being a dictatorship with a documented lack of free speech, the operation is supposed to be a classic of conscience-free capitalist oppression.
In truth the work does look tough, and the conditions grim, if we compare Vietnamese factories with what we have back home. But that�s not the comparison these workers make. They compare the work at Nike with the way they lived before, or the way their parents or neighbours still work. And the facts are revealing. The average pay at a Nike factory close to Ho Chi Minh is $54 a month, almost three times the minimum wage for a state-owned enterprise.
Ten years ago, when Nike was established in Vietnam, the workers had to walk to the factories, often for many miles. After three years on Nike wages, they could afford bicycles. Another three years later, they could afford scooters, so they all take the scooters to work (and if you go there, beware; they haven�t really decided on which side of the road to drive). Today, the first workers can afford to buy a car.
But when I talk to a young Vietnamese woman, Tsi-Chi, at the factory, it is not the wages she is most happy about. Sure, she makes five times more than she did, she earns more than her husband, and she can now afford to build an extension to her house. But the most important thing, she says, is that she doesn�t have to work outdoors on a farm any more. For me, a Swede with only three months of summer, this sounds bizarre. Surely working conditions under the blue sky must be superior to those in a sweatshop? But then I am naively Eurocentric. Farming means 10 to 14 hours a day in the burning sun or the intensive rain, in rice fields with water up to your ankles and insects in your face. Even a Swede would prefer working nine to five in a clean, air-conditioned factory.
Furthermore, the Nike job comes with a regular wage, with free or subsidised meals, free medical services and training and education. The most persistent demand Nike hears from the workers is for an expansion of the factories so that their relatives can be offered a job as well.
These facts make Nike sound more like Santa Claus than Scrooge. But corporations such as Nike don�t bring these benefits and wages because they are generous. It is not altruism that is at work here; it is globalisation. With their investments in poor countries, multinationals bring new machinery, better technology, new management skills and production ideas, a larger market and the education of their workers. That is exactly what raises productivity. And if you increase productivity - the amount a worker can produce - you can also increase his wage.
Nike is not the accidental good guy. On average, multinationals in the least developed countries pay twice as much as domestic companies in the same line of business. If you get to work for an American multinational in a low-income country, you get eight times the average income. If this is exploitation, then the problem in our world is that the poor countries aren�t sufficiently exploited.
The effect on local business is profound: �Before I visit some foreign factory, especially like Nike, we have a question. Why do the foreign factories here work well and produce much more?� That was what Mr Kiet, the owner of a local shoe factory who visited Nike to learn how he could be just as successful at attracting workers, told me: �And I recognise that productivity does not only come from machinery but also from satisfaction of the worker. So for the future factory we should concentrate on our working conditions.�
If I was an antiglobalist, I would stop complaining about Nike�s bad wages. If there is a problem, it is that the wages are too high, so that they are almost luring doctors and teachers away from their important jobs.
But - happily - I don�t think even that is a realistic threat. With growing productivity it will also be possible to invest in education and healthcare for Vietnam. Since 1990, when the Vietnamese communists began to liberalise the economy, exports of coffee, rice, clothes and footwear have surged, the economy has doubled, and poverty has been halved. Nike and Coca-Cola triumphed where American bombs failed. They have made Vietnam capitalist.
I asked the young Nike worker Tsi-Chi what her hopes were for her son�s future. A generation ago, she would have had to put him to work on the farm from an early age. But Tsi-Chi told me she wants to give him a good education, so that he can become a doctor. That�s one of the most impressive developments since Vietnam�s economy was opened up. In ten years 2.2 million children have gone from child labour to education. It would be extremely interesting to hear an antiglobalist explain to Tsi-Chi why it is important for Westerners to boycott Nike, so that she loses her job, and has to go back into farming, and has to send her son to work.
The European Left used to listen to the Vietnamese communists when they brought only misery and starvation to their population. Shouldn�t they listen to the Vietnamese now, when they have found a way to improve people�s lives? The party officials have been convinced by Nike that ruthless multinational capitalists are better than the state at providing workers with high wages and a good and healthy workplace. How long will it take for our own anticapitalists to learn that lesson?
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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This is going to be fun.
1) Not hotshot. Educated and employed. Thousands like me, better than me. If have ever have a question about how to discipline disrespectful Korean 2nd graders, I'll be sure to send you a PM.
2) What crap? At what point have I been incorrect? |
Most of it son, based on a marginalized Gordon Gecko 'greed is good' philosophy that benefits the rich and exploits the poor. You are using a very predictable train of though and you are boring.
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| 1) What country is mine? |
Doesn't matter wherever you are American or a subject of a US puppet goverment like the UK, who cares where you are from you reactionary fool. You are either and american or a wannabe american, same difference.
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| 2) Assuming you are talking of the USA, are poor blacks poor because of their participation in capitalism or their being structurally kept out of capitalism? |
Ho ho ho ho! They choose to be poor? Is this what you are trying to say? So this has nothing to do with capitalism? and it has nothing to do with communism has it?
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Now tell me son that is not 'economic imperialism'
It isn't. |
It is! You are too stupid to know the definition of 'economic imperialism' thus the continuaton of this boring debate.
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It does not trade heavily with the world!
Yes, it does. Relative to her GDP. |
Oh now it does! I thought Cuba traded heavily with the world full stop! It doesn't and you know it doesn't. It's GDP is reliant on import/exports that is heavily sanctioned by bullying US regimes. True or false?
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| Tourism does not build economies. It provides forex for the state, which is why the Cuban government likes it. |
This is a joke? Go away and retrain to another career! tourism has built many an economy from Spain to Thailand.
http://www.country-studies.com/spain/the-economy---the-franco-era,-1939-75.html
Learn some history, It also goes to show that the US goverment are not that fussy about doing buisness and build the economies of autocratic dictatorships as long as they are singing from the same hymn sheet as them.
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| Yes, in fact. Castro has Swiss bank accounts. He, like all dictators, must have a slush fund available should he find himself unemployed. But most of the forex goes to other things, I'm sure. |
Wheres your proof of this?
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| I'm defending democracy and you call me adolf? Do they teach you history at white-trash U? |
You are not defending democracy, you are defending capitalism you plank!
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I said:
Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God?
You said:
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It wasn't meant as a joke you asked two questions at the end of the idiotic statment. |
So, I was also then being serious that "luck" and "god" are valid reasons for poverty? |
You tell me son, I don't know why you said that except you were being serious!
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| That is right. The US will play a role. |
Play a role? They will be the star of the show!
The vast majority of Cubans do not want the Americans there. Can't you get that into your thick skull. Why the hell should a foreign power have the right to meddle in another sovereign nations right to govern themselves? Tell me?
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| What "most" governments do doesn't excuse what Castro has done. Unless in white-trash land, two wrongs make a right? |
Whose excused Castro? He is no better or worse than most leaders of so called 'democracies' and definetely no worse than the simian in charge of the white house.
Though in my personal opinion he will go in history as a great leader who stuck it to the yanks for 50 years and fought apartheid in Africa while the bad guys were being aided and abbetted by the united states, history will not lie son! 
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while people are dying because they can't afford health insurance! Thats coming from the rihest nation on the earth.
You are a reactionary hypocrite!
I'd like you to very clearly explain to me how. |
How are you an reactionary, right wing nutcase. lememsee! Islam encourags rape.
In the muslim tradition, there is nothing morally wrong with it. It is encouraged, in fact. Gotta act like the "pro(f)it" and such. The Americans get tried and go to jail and the taliban will continue on. Based on that evidence, I postulated that the some hostages would get raped.
Islam encourages violence:
Yes, islam directly encourages violence. There is absolutely no way that you can make any argument at all that it doesn't. islam, as described in the koran and hadiths, is a very violent ideology. It is a violent idea. Of course, there are many reasons that a person can become violent.
Along with your silly unqualified generalizations about a world religion and your 'greed is good philiosophy' I would qualify you as a reactionary halfwit who talks complete shyte!
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| Again, do the crimes of Bush excuse the Crimes of Castro or others? Do you live in a universe as morally stunted as that? |
Where do I say I'm against democracy in Cuba? Where smartarse? I don't. it's coming anyway with or without Americas involvment but it would be nice if America stayed out. They won't unfortuneatly, anyway, whose bodycount is greater? Castro' in 48 years or Bush's in 7? Didn't anwser that one did you?
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| http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=articles&articleid=53 |
Read your little piece below and proves my main point, which is the USA will do business with any autocratic, dictactorial regime as long as they do as they are told. They don't give a fack about freedom, democracy or human rights as long as the dictatorships in question sing from that American hymnsheet.
Unfortuenatley for you the people of Cuba know this, they don't want you there and you and those braying donkeys who live in Miami will not be welcomed when Castro dies. Its that simple! |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Someone asked where Soviet funds to Havana went. I do not know how much aid there was. But it was no small amount.
It modernized the Cuban Air Force for one. MiGs. It modernized and expanded the Cuban armed forces and security services as a whole, for another. Castro fought wars all over Africa, and for several decades. He also trained, supported, and equipped Latin-American and Caribbean guerrillas and other militants from El Salvador to Chile.
Most of the Soviet funds Castro recieved then, went into military spending out-of-all-proportion to Cuba's place in world affairs. In exchange, the Soviets got discounted sugar and no small amount of headaches...It is clear to us now that the Soviets saw Castro more as a political and economic liability than an asset, and this from an early date in Soviet-Cuban relations. He and his Latin-American allies were far more extreme and antiAmerican than Moscow ever was. Too bad, then, that FDR did not respond to Castro's letter, send him the ten-dollar bill he wanted, and then arrange for a try-out with the Yankees.
This being said, there is something to admire about Castro's revolutionary idealism in the early 1960s. Complex man. I hope his passing goes painlessly for him. And I hope Cubans on Cuba and in Miami will quietly transition to the next era -- although I doubt it will unfold that way. |
with all due respect Castro wanted the USSR to use nuclear weapons against the US. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: |
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So, I read this and I feel like I'm talking to an assumptive child. Though, you are British, and as such that might just be the case. I've never met a more ignorant group of people outside of the "blue-collar" types in Northern England, where I am 100% sure you are from. I doubt your intelligence as you understand "being structurally kept out" as meaning "choosing poverty". You also chastise the USA for on the one hand trading with Vietnam and on the other not trading with Cuba. Now I understand, mate, how you ended up in the hakwon4life posse.
That said, why don't you write a sentence or two outlining what are your major positions here. It seems that you are deeply ignorant about how economies function, develop and the relationship that foreign capital, governments and the like have with these economies. But economic opinions are like arseholes. Everybody does have one, and that that is exactly why Cuba and her ilk are in the economic crapper. But some opinions are more informed than others, which brings me to you.
On to my position.
Cuba is poor because of the unique political-economy of the country. Castro is an undemocratic thug who has kept his people poor as that is how he most benefits. Lastly, the United States will not be invading Cuba at any time in the near or distant future. I suppose that these opinions do deserve the tag "adolf".
So, on to you. Other than "I'm angry, low-class, dumb and hate America", what is your actual opinion in all this? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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This deserves a separate reply:
you said:
| Quote: |
| How are you an reactionary, right wing nutcase. lememsee! Cool Islam encourags rape. Laughing |
I said:
| Quote: |
In the muslim tradition, there is nothing morally wrong with it. It is encouraged, in fact. Gotta act like the "pro(f)it" and such. The Americans get tried and go to jail and the taliban will continue on. Based on that evidence, I postulated that the some hostages would get raped.
Islam encourages violence:
Yes, islam directly encourages violence. There is absolutely no way that you can make any argument at all that it doesn't. islam, as described in the koran and hadiths, is a very violent ideology. It is a violent idea. Of course, there are many reasons that a person can become violent. |
To which you reply:
| Quote: |
| Along with your silly unqualified generalizations about a world religion and your 'greed is good philiosophy' I would qualify you as a reactionary halfwit who talks complete shyte! |
Educate thyself:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/int/long.html
islam directly encourages violence, as you can see in the quotes from the above link. In addition, mohammad (who all muslims are to emulate) took great pleasure in dividing the female slaves/prisoners of various infidel conquests. Should you ever feel the need to put down a beer and read up on the "world religion" you blindly, and ignorantly defend, you will quickly realize this to be true. There are fully zero theological arguments against my fully cited position.
You simply can not make a textual, historical or contextual argument that 1) islam does not encourage violence or 2) rape of captives is prohibited.
I guess if opposing a tyrant (Castro) and also opposing an idea that commands violence makes me a "reactionary, right wing nutcase" (sic) then I wear that label as a badge of honour. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
So, I read this and I feel like I'm talking to an assumptive child. Though, you are British, and as such that might just be the case. I've never met a more ignorant group of people outside of the "blue-collar" types in Northern England, where I am 100% sure you are from. I doubt your intelligence as you understand "being structurally kept out" as meaning "choosing poverty". You also chastise the USA for on the one hand trading with Vietnam and on the other not trading with Cuba. Now I understand, mate, how you ended up in the hakwon4life posse.
That said, why don't you write a sentence or two outlining what are your major positions here. It seems that you are deeply ignorant about how economies function, develop and the relationship that foreign capital, governments and the like have with these economies. But economic opinions are like arseholes. Everybody does have one, and that that is exactly why Cuba and her ilk are in the economic crapper. But some opinions are more informed than others, which brings me to you.
On to my position.
Cuba is poor because of the unique political-economy of the country. Castro is an undemocratic thug who has kept his people poor as that is how he most benefits. Lastly, the United States will not be invading Cuba at any time in the near or distant future. I suppose that these opinions do deserve the tag "adolf".
So, on to you. Other than "I'm angry, low-class, dumb and hate America", what is your actual opinion in all this? |
My major position is this, Fidel Castros time has come to an end as has the present political structure of Cuba. The system that is there now is unworkable in the present political climate and the only people who are suffering are the ordinary Cuban people. Castro knows this as does his politburo and thats why they are developing tourism on the island with the Spanish as when the political system collapses. There will be a capitalist structure that can benefit the people of the island who in turn will not be
exploited by the US goverment or the businessmen of that country.
The reason Fidel Castro gained power and overthrew the Batista goverment with overwhelming public support was because of the US dominance and 'economic imperialism' over the vast majoriy of the people of the island. The last thing the people want in Cuba is US political interference when Castro dies. The last thing people want is US capitalists turning Cuba into a sweatshop economy. The vast majority of Cubans fought against that and kicked the Americans and their lapdogs out which was the point of the revolution.
For some reason though, and you have yet to anwser this, is why the United States think it has a role in the transition to democracy in Cuba?
They are not wanted there, they don't want the Miami Cubans there with their vengance there and they do not want US industry there making nike trainers while payin the workers 5 bucks a day.
| Quote: |
| You also chastise the USA for on the one hand trading with Vietnam and on the other not trading with Cuba. |
I don't chastise the USA for trading, I chastise the USA for imposing
'economic imperialism' on the people of Vietnam and they are about to do it directly in the near future to the Cubans. I also chastise the way the United States has tried to bully the world and its own citizens in regards towards their views on Cuba. Basically it has backfired, the United States has been shown up for the demagogue neo-capitalistic state that it really is, instead of the purveyors of democracy and free speech, bottom line and you know it is that the US goverment do not give a monkeys about free speech or democracy as long as it dosn't get in the way of their own economic interests.
| Quote: |
| Though, you are British, and as such that might just be the case. I've never met a more ignorant group of people outside of the "blue-collar" types in Northern England, where I am 100% sure you are from |
And proud of it!
Ignorant though? Unlike you, you mean! 
Last edited by bejarano-korea on Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
This deserves a separate reply:
you said:
| Quote: |
| How are you an reactionary, right wing nutcase. lememsee! Cool Islam encourags rape. Laughing |
I said:
| Quote: |
In the muslim tradition, there is nothing morally wrong with it. It is encouraged, in fact. Gotta act like the "pro(f)it" and such. The Americans get tried and go to jail and the taliban will continue on. Based on that evidence, I postulated that the some hostages would get raped.
Islam encourages violence:
Yes, islam directly encourages violence. There is absolutely no way that you can make any argument at all that it doesn't. islam, as described in the koran and hadiths, is a very violent ideology. It is a violent idea. Of course, there are many reasons that a person can become violent. |
To which you reply:
| Quote: |
| Along with your silly unqualified generalizations about a world religion and your 'greed is good philiosophy' I would qualify you as a reactionary halfwit who talks complete shyte! |
Educate thyself:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/int/long.html
islam directly encourages violence, as you can see in the quotes from the above link. In addition, mohammad (who all muslims are to emulate) took great pleasure in dividing the female slaves/prisoners of various infidel conquests. Should you ever feel the need to put down a beer and read up on the "world religion" you blindly, and ignorantly defend, you will quickly realize this to be true. There are fully zero theological arguments against my fully cited position.
You simply can not make a textual, historical or contextual argument that 1) islam does not encourage violence or 2) rape of captives is prohibited.
I guess if opposing a tyrant (Castro) and also opposing an idea that commands violence makes me a "reactionary, right wing nutcase" (sic) then I wear that label as a badge of honour. |
Not interested!
You are a bigot.
I can get parts of the old testament to 'prove' christianity is evil.
So what?
Back to school for you and learn how to debate properly. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I don't chastise the USA for trading, I chastise the USA for imposing
'economic imperialism' on the people of Vietnam and they are about to do it in the near future to the Cubans. I also chastise the way the United States has tried to bully the world and its own citizens in regards towards their views on Cuba. Basically it has backfired, the United States has been shown up for the demagogue neo-capitalistic state that it really is, instead of the purveyors of democracy and free speech, bottom line and you know it is that the US goverment do not give a monkeys about free speech or democracy as long as it dosn't get in the way of their own economic interests. |
I am not in favor of the Cuban embargo cause enforcing it is a waste of diplomatic capital for the US. That being said the US was well within its rights to embargo Cuba who backed the Soviets and guerrilla groups during the cold war. You think those guerrilla groups were any nicer than the right wing dictators the US supported? The US also is well within its rights to prevent its citizens for doing business with Cuba. Thats how it goes and Castro is a bearded gangster. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| bejarano-korea wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
This deserves a separate reply:
you said:
| Quote: |
| How are you an reactionary, right wing nutcase. lememsee! Cool Islam encourags rape. Laughing |
I said:
| Quote: |
In the muslim tradition, there is nothing morally wrong with it. It is encouraged, in fact. Gotta act like the "pro(f)it" and such. The Americans get tried and go to jail and the taliban will continue on. Based on that evidence, I postulated that the some hostages would get raped.
Islam encourages violence:
Yes, islam directly encourages violence. There is absolutely no way that you can make any argument at all that it doesn't. islam, as described in the koran and hadiths, is a very violent ideology. It is a violent idea. Of course, there are many reasons that a person can become violent. |
To which you reply:
| Quote: |
| Along with your silly unqualified generalizations about a world religion and your 'greed is good philiosophy' I would qualify you as a reactionary halfwit who talks complete shyte! |
Educate thyself:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/int/long.html
islam directly encourages violence, as you can see in the quotes from the above link. In addition, mohammad (who all muslims are to emulate) took great pleasure in dividing the female slaves/prisoners of various infidel conquests. Should you ever feel the need to put down a beer and read up on the "world religion" you blindly, and ignorantly defend, you will quickly realize this to be true. There are fully zero theological arguments against my fully cited position.
You simply can not make a textual, historical or contextual argument that 1) islam does not encourage violence or 2) rape of captives is prohibited.
I guess if opposing a tyrant (Castro) and also opposing an idea that commands violence makes me a "reactionary, right wing nutcase" (sic) then I wear that label as a badge of honour. |
Not interested!
You are a bigot.
I can get parts of the old testament to 'prove' christianity is evil.
So what?
Back to school for you and learn how to debate properly. |
"Debate properly"? Dude, you've made so many logical, reading comprehension and spelling errors that I actually feel bad for slapping you around like this.
But yes, the Christian faith is a disgusting perversion of a perverted violent lie. Christianity and islam are neck in neck with communism/fascism for the absolute worst things to ever happen to humanity.
It is amazing, isn't it, that I accurately picked both the country and region of country that you came from. I'm proud.
| Quote: |
| For some reason though, and you have yet to anwser this, is why the United States think it has a role in the transition to democracy in Cuba? |
The US "thinks" it has a role because it is the superpower and feels it has a role. This is neither a valid reason or a valid justification for meddling. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| "Debate properly"? Dude, |
Who are you? Bill and facking Ted? Grow up! using teenage slang and euphenmisms is not the sign of a mentally balanced adult!
| Quote: |
| you've made so many logical, reading comprehension and spelling errors that I actually feel bad for slapping you around like this. |
'Slapping around?' listen tough guy, if it makes you feel better that you had an online debate with someone you don't know and want to eqaute this to a physical beating then thats fine, you wouldn't find it so easy to 'slap me' around in real life mate the reality is sunshine it is all in your dreams the thread is here for eveyone to see but I'll summrize your best points.
1) The Soviet Union and now Venezuela and others have dumped tens of billions of dollars into Cuba with near zero benefit.
But then you said
2) Venezuala is trading, giving aid and loaning billions and billions to Cuba.
The contradictions don't end there though, here comes another classic.
1) I'm defending democracy
And then
2) Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God?
Capitalism. Effective government. Effective institutions. Proper regulations. Education that serves a market purpose.
You don't seem to know the difference between capitalism and democracy. Hitlers/Mussolinis regime had capitalism, effective goverment and services, regulations to the letter and an education that served its market purpose but it wasn't democratic was it? Because Bush or Regan told you capitalism and democracy were mutually exclusive doesn't make it so.
1) You need to learn the difference between an embargo and a blockade.
Embargo: any restriction imposed upon commerce by edict. a government order imposing a trade barrier.
Blockade: prevents access or progress/The forces used to effect this isolation.
Arguing over semantics son. You were reaching there wasn't ya Rambo!
Also you don't seem to understand what:
1) Economic imperialism is and the fact that you don't think the United States practices 'economic imperialism' proves that you haven't a facking clue what it is.
2) Think that a country can get richer by printing more money. Honestly thats when you lost any credibility with your ersatz boasts about our economics background.
| Quote: |
| It is amazing, isn't it, that I accurately picked both the country and region of country that you came from. I'm proud. |
You probably looked through my prior posts in my profile, I haven't really hid where I'm from under a bushel. You aren't as smart as you think you are son.
| Quote: |
For some reason though, and you have yet to anwser this, is why the United States think it has a role in the transition to democracy in Cuba?
The US "thinks" it has a role because it is the superpower and feels it has a role. This is neither a valid reason or a valid justification for meddling. |
Thank you!
At last.
So we agree with something.
You are right, the United States has no more right of a role in Cuba than the Soviet Union did over 40 years ago.
My take, the US should keep out of Cuban affairs, it is going back to democracy with no thanks to the Americans.
Thats my last word on this BJWD, there is nothing else to say so I allow you to have the last word like one of those annoying little dogs that hump your leg.
Crack on then BJWD. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I want you to think about this sentence: You are not very intelligent. Below, I'll demonstrate why.
| Quote: |
1) The Soviet Union and now Venezuela and others have dumped tens of billions of dollars into Cuba with near zero benefit.
But then you said
2) Venezuela is trading, giving aid and loaning billions and billions to Cuba.
The contradictions don't end there though, here comes another classic. |
There is no contradiction here. In 1 and 2 I state that money is flowing and has flowed from Venezuela into Cuba but in 1 not 2 I suggest that there isn't any benefit. There is no contraction here, but merely one of the two points adds additional information that the other does not.
| Quote: |
2) Ha. Yeah. No, why do they have no money? Did they run out of ink? Where does wealth come from? Why is Singapore (another island, post-colonial, mix-raced, unfree island state) rich and Cuba dirt poor? Luck? God?
Capitalism. Effective government. Effective institutions. Proper regulations. Education that serves a market purpose.
You don't seem to know the difference between capitalism and democracy. Hitlers/Mussolinis regime had capitalism, effective goverment and services, regulations to the letter and an education that served its market purpose but it wasn't democratic was it? Because Bush or Regan told you capitalism and democracy were mutually exclusive doesn't make it so.
|
I referred to Castro as an unelected dictator no less than 8 times. That is exhibit "a" that I am primarily concerned with democracy. In addition to this, I listed capitalism next to (as in, in addition to) "effective government", "proper regulations" and decent education that serves a vocational purpose. Obviously, then, I'm 1/4 interested in the free market and the remaining 3/4 the proper functioning of government. Combine that with my repeated statement that my concern in democracy and I think, once again, the British people should be asking for a refund from one hakwon cowboy.
| Quote: |
1) You need to learn the difference between an embargo and a blockade.
Embargo: any restriction imposed upon commerce by edict. a government order imposing a trade barrier.
Blockade: prevents access or progress/The forces used to effect this isolation.
Arguing over semantics son. You were reaching there wasn't ya Rambo! |
An embargo and blockade, in economics, refer to different situations. A blockade prevents all trade and an embargo prevents trade from a specific source. This is merely a semantic discussion if your primary vocational concerns are 1) how to get those kids to sit down and 2) how to spend your 26k/year in salary.
| Quote: |
1) Economic imperialism is and the fact that you don't think the United States practices 'economic imperialism' proves that you haven't a facking clue what it is. |
You used the term "economic imperialism" to discuss the American-Vietnamese trading relationship of today. I replied with an article that clearly disproves that thesis, in that situation. The Vietnamese Communist Party clearly don't think it economic imperialism.
| Quote: |
2) Think that a country can get richer by printing more money. Honestly thats when you lost any credibility with your ersatz boasts about our economics background. |
I could have fun with this. I could cite Keynes and his ideas about burying cash to stimulate demand. I could also cite Friedman and the "Chicago Boys" and their theories of increasing the monetary supply equal to the level of economic growth plus a "taste" to stimulate aggregate demand. I could point you towards legions of economists (the head of virtually every central bank on earth, for example) who actually do believe that stable, reasonable increases in money lead to further wealth creation. But ultimately, I don't agree with mainstream economists on this point, and even if I did the explanations for their ideas would blow over your white-trash head, and in which case I'll repost my last reply to this immature "position" of yours.
I said:
| Quote: |
| So, I was also then being serious that "luck" and "god" are valid reasons for poverty? |
And in the end, you realized that you are an assumptive little child who assumed that because I wasn't taking the "idiot" position (as in, your position) I ergo must be taking the "evil" position (the position that American ought to invade) but one of isolationism and respect for sovereignty.
I'm a talented guy, "dad" (is this dude efl's other sock? with all the "son" talk?). I can hold two opinions at once:
1) Castro is bad
2) Invading would be bad.
Imagine that. The joys of a proper education. Enjoy kindy today, eh? |
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