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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
The children are granted citizenship at birth, which is common practice for the children of immigrants in developed nations.
My point, Huff-n-Puff, was that their parents were lucky to obtain citizenship under such lenient terms. Had they been required to study for a citizenship test perhaps they would have known what Irish law dictates in this matter. That they did not, however, does not remove the onus from them for failure to know the law. Citizens, whether naturalized or not, are expected to familiarize themselves with the laws; it never has been the government's responsibility to inform them.
As I said, religion permeates Irish culture. It's not our place to change that practice. We can call it into question if we wish or we can take the stance that all cultures have traits which people from other cultures find offensive.
As one who claims to be an "enlightened" occupant of the Left, I'm surprised you don't realize this. Actually, I'm not surprised; the Left only enforces this view of cultural preservation when a minority (re: people of color) are concerned.
Now go put your head in a bog. |
Huh? So by your logic, countries should never change despite migration? We will allow you to join us but nothing must change...Sounds like the borg to me
All cultures change at some point, sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's turbulent. These people moved to another country, went to enroll their kids, were given the run around and then watched as white Irish people who just moved to that particular city registered their kids without a fuss. Maybe I'm crazy but forcing someone to choose between their religion, switching teams in order to get into school and not for spiritual guidance and attending an all black school in a country that's 99% white is not what I'd call living in the 21st century...But the real test is to see what happens next year? Do these kids stay in the all Black school, are other Irish children sent to the school or are the kids all given a shot at going to whatever school they want?
And it's interesting that the Irish consitution guarantees "Equality before the law: Guaranteed by Article 40.1. " and "Education: Article 42 guarantees parents the right to determine how their children shall be educated, provided a minimum standard is met. Under the same article the state must provide for free primary level education. Currently Irish law also guarantees free second and third level education. " So the letter of the law is being carried out but the spirit...? I simpy don't know....
I don't think anyone here can change anything but those children are Irish and can't fight for their rights so their parents are trying to do it for them....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland#Religion |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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"Ireland Steps Up as Immigration Leader"
Read all about it here:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070905/wl_csm/oshamrock
According to the article, Ireland is being proactive in handling its 10% immigration population. If what it says in the article is true, it's sounds like Ireland is making a good faith effort.
What other countries let non-citizens vote in local elections? Does anyone know? That sounds like a fair deal. Pay taxes. Take part in government decisions in how local taxes are spent. Fair enough. There's even a mayor.
Clearly there is a gap in the law somewhere, or these kids under discussion in this thread would not be having this particular problem, but from the sound of the article, there are legal means of dealing constructively with the problem.
Sodom and Begorrah  (as someone used to say) |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
As I said, religion permeates Irish culture. It's not our place to change that practice. We can call it into question if we wish or we can take the stance that all cultures have traits which people from other cultures find offensive.
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This isn't a cultural thing. this is a holdover from when Ireland was a very catholic nation. It no longer is. Church attendance rates have plummeted in the last 20 years whilst immigration has went up, as well as the wealth of the country. Time to get rid of these backward laws. Hopefully situations like this will provide the impetus for this to happen.
You have seemed to have ignored the fact that this law does not not just discriminate against immigrants but also athiests, protestants and any other religion. I don't care what country it is in a law like that should be criticised by all. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy noted:
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| According to the article, Ireland is being proactive in handling its 10% immigration population. If what it says in the article is true, it's sounds like Ireland is making a good faith effort. |
Gee, what a surprise: yet another mostly white country accommodating its minorities. Too bad the same can't be said for whites living as minorities in most countries where people of color reign. I'm sure Mugabe and the rest of Zimbabwe will rush to look after the rights and needs of its white citizens, for instance.
JMO wrote:
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| This isn't a cultural thing. this is a holdover from when Ireland was a very catholic nation. It no longer is. Church attendance rates have plummeted in the last 20 years whilst immigration has went up, as well as the wealth of the country. Time to get rid of these backward laws. Hopefully situations like this will provide the impetus for this to happen. |
Oh, so now religion is an anachronism in Irish life? That's news to me; most surveys consistenly show the Irish to be among the few peoples in Western Europe where religion still has a strong influence. Interesting how you are so casually dismissive of this influence, insisting it's not cultural and a "holdover." That is rubbish, as is your grammar.
Let me be clear: segregation based on race in Ireland would be grossly unfair. But segregation based on religion I believe is not. And if they don't like that, they should work for change in the laws.
[/b] |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Oh, so now religion is an anachronism in Irish life? That's news to me; most surveys consistenly show the Irish to be among the few peoples in Western Europe where religion still has a strong influence. Interesting how you are so casually dismissive of this influence, insisting it's not cultural and a "holdover." That is rubbish, as is your grammar.
Let me be clear: segregation based on race in Ireland would be grossly unfair. But segregation based on religion I believe is not. And if they don't like that, they should work for change in the laws. |
Yes and this would give a good reason to change the law. My grammar is irrelevant. Just because the majority of the population is catholic does not mean that should be a requirement for entering a state primary school.
You believe that my Irish athiest and protestant friends should not have had the opportunity to go to the same schools as me. That is obviously discrimination.
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| segregation based on race in Ireland would be grossly unfair. But segregation based on religion I believe is not |
How is it different? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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JMO:
Your as dense as a Norman thicket.
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| My grammar is irrelevant |
Ah, yes, well, right. I mistook you for an English teacher (my bad.) |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Your as dense as a Norman thicket. |
Yes, you're bad (or is that your'e bad?). You're punctuation is as bad as you're spelling. Thank you're lucky stars your not an English teacher. I would pity you're students if your were an English teacher, but your aren't. We all be glad for small miracles. |
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Tony_Balony
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| ee, what a surprise: yet another mostly white country accommodating its minorities. Too bad the same can't be said for whites living as minorities in most countries where people of color reign. I'm sure Mugabe and the rest of Zimbabwe will rush to look after the rights and needs of its white citizens, for instance |
Thats a great point Steve but the assessment is limited. Europe is good because it provides jobs. Africa is bad because it doesn't. Why is the requirement so one sided?
Ya-ta is as counter productive as usual. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Ya Ta Boy snapped:
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| Yes, you're bad (or is that your'e bad?). You're punctuation is as bad as you're spelling. Thank you're lucky stars your not an English teacher. I would pity you're students if your were an English teacher, but your aren't. We all be glad for small miracles. |
I know how to use contractions, YT Boy. It was intentional--part of the point I was trying to make about grammar, which I reckon was lost on you. 
By the way, have you learned how to spell "condescension" yet? Don't knit your brow over this--wouldn't want condensation to form on your forehead. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| It was intentional |
You're insecurities are showing. Again.  Pull up you're pants and maybe no one will notice you're lack.
If you were secure, you could just say, like another poster did, that 'it' was just a 'type-o'. He at least had the courage of his condensation. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I'm sure Mugabe and the rest of Zimbabwe will rush to look after the rights and needs of its white citizens, for instance. |
So Mugabe is the baseline of minority population treatment now? Can you set the bar any lower? I'd reckon not. Off hand, I'd say that the majority of white minority populations have made out a fair bit better than non-white minority populations.
Maybe something along the lines of South Africa would be a good example. The white minority seemed to make out alright there. Although I'm sure you still lament the end of apartheid, and will quickly drum up some examples that show us how poorly the white minority was treated there.
Last edited by huffdaddy on Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
JMO:
Your as dense as a Norman thicket.
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| My grammar is irrelevant |
Ah, yes, well, right. I mistook you for an English teacher (my bad.) |
Ah the sweet sound of someone realising their argument is flawed and resorting to attacks on grammar. Music to my ears.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, let's see if you respond this time.
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| You believe that my Irish athiest and protestant friends should not have had the opportunity to go to the same schools as me. That is obviously discrimination. |
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Tony_Balony
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Why do Europeans have to be nice to Africans when Africans don't have to.
Its the international racism shake down racket. Call whitey a name, get a check.
You know what? Africans are bad people esp Nigerians.
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Health, health care, and general living conditions in Nigeria are poor. Life expectancy is 47 years (average male/female) and just over half the population has access to potable water and appropriate sanitation; the percentage is of children under five has gone up rather than down between 1990 and 2003 and infant mortality is 97.1 deaths per 1000 live births.[31] HIV/AIDS rate in Nigeria is much lower compared to the other African nations such as Kenya or South Africa whose prevalence (percentage) rates are in the double digits. Nigeria, like many developing countries, also suffers from a polio crisis as well as periodic outbreaks of cholera, malaria, and sleeping sickness. As of 2004, there has been a vaccination drive, spearheaded by the W.H.O., to combat polio and malaria that has been met with controversy in some regions.[32]
Education is also in a state of neglect, though after the oil boom on the oil price in the early 1970s, tertiary education was improved so it would reach every subregion of Nigeria. Education is provided free by the government, but the attendance rate for secondary education is only 29% (average male 32%/female 27%). The education system has been described as "dysfunctional" largely due to decaying institutional infrastructure. 68% of the population is literate, and the rate for men (75.7%) is higher than that for women (60.6%).[31] |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Why do Europeans have to be nice to Africans when Africans don't have to. |
Because we are not all four years old. That was the last time I used this argument. |
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