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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
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And anyone who opposes the war on humanitarian grouds is either ignorant or disinegenous but in your case it is possible that it is both.
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Considering you've already been owned several times in your debates I would have to say that Dome cannot be ignorant. I guess that makes him disingenuous.  |
Give examples .
Anyone is ok.
If someone put that challenge to be I would go for it.
Are you saying that Saddam didn't gas the Kurds? Where did he do so good?
Anyway you are a big fan of Justin Raimondo so that makes your opinion worth -less.
By the way Al Qaeda tried to do a bombing in the Netherlands after they pulled out of Iraq. I though you were trying to give the impression that all a country needs to do is leave the middle east and they will be safe.
Anyway please let me know where he did so well. Otherwise it is just an opinion w/o any evidence. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The war was not illegal cause Saddam never gave up his war. |
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Not Saddam never gave up his war.
His regime was illegitimate |
The US invaded Iraq. Saddam was defending his country. ANy country would do this. If America didn't invade, there would be no war. So to say it was his war is incorrect.
The only 'war' that Saddam had prior to the invasion was a war of words nothing physical with the States. So the US 'took him out' because they could. Big dikk waving contest. Therefore it was a pre-emptive strike, who was the aggressor here?
As prev. posted the US was quite happy to support Saddam before he fell out of favour with the government. So you are saying that the US supported his 'illegitimate regime'? But when it went against their purposes they changed and labelled him a terrorist.
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| Says the guy who sucks up the alternative media that is written for no other purpose but to go after the US and those who are sympathetic to it. |
We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. You can believe your state run propaganda to suit your own opinions, arguments and means and I'll listen to the free press that gives a slightly less biased view. There is generally more of this info and it's a case of sifting thru. Your media is of a very narrow minded nature. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Dome Vans"][quote]
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| The US invaded Iraq. Saddam was defending his country. ANy country would do this. If America didn't invade, there would be no war. So to say it was his war is incorrect. |
Saddam was defending his country by gassing the Kurds and persecuting the Shias, (80% of the Iraqi population) threatening Kuwait and sponsoring terror, teaching hate and inciting violence?
Iraqi demographics
Shia 60%
Sunni 20%
Kurd 20%
One of the reasons / excuses for the no fly zones was to prevent Saddam from persecuting the Shia and the Kurds. That is 80% of the Iraqi population. So when Saddam shot at US planes he was defending Iraq?
Those are the facts.
IF Saddam had done like Khaddafy did the chances are there would have been no war. The US isn't bothering Libya cause Khaddafy quit his war (for the most part anyway)
Saddam also was a killer on par with Idi Amin. That is another fact
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| The only 'war' that Saddam had prior to the invasion was a war of words nothing physical with the States. So the US 'took him out' because they could. Big dikk waving contest. Therefore it was a pre-emptive strike, who was the aggressor here? |
He shot at US planes , he tried to kill a US president. He continued to threaten Kuwait and persecuted his own people.Futhermore he incited hate and violence as a tactic.
The aggessor here was the Bathists, and the Khomeni followers and the Al Qaedists. They need to be dealt with
As I said before :
War to steal Iraqs oil would have been wrong.
War to force Bathists , Khomenists and Al Qaedists to quit their war is justified.
W
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| As prev. posted the US was quite happy to support Saddam before he fell out of favour with the government. So you are saying that the US supported his 'illegitimate regime'? But when it went against their purposes they changed and labelled him a terrorist. |
Cause Saddam was aginst Khomeni. Khomeni was also a fascist bigot.
Iran was after the US.
IT was kind of like the US supporting Stalin against Hitler.
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| We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. You can believe your state run propaganda to suit your own opinions, arguments and means and I'll listen to the free press that gives a slightly less biased view. There is generally more of this info and it's a case of sifting thru. Your media is of a very narrow minded nature |
Really CNN , the New York Times , MSNBC , USA today. are state run propaganda.
Alternative media is just to get the US and only to get the US. That is real propaganda. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Militarily, there is little going wrong with the war in Iraq. Hussein, a mass murderer, is in his grave, the oil wells are pumping out crude and there hasn't been an attack on the American homeland since 911. Thousands of American soldiers have lost their lives and this is very sad. However, the numbers of U.S. dead are very small when one considers the carnage of WWI and II, to say nothing of Vietnam.
what is more important (sorry about the lower case but I'm typing on a M faith computer in china.) is that there is now an overwhelming american military presence/base in the heart of the Jihadist world. this is important in the fight against islamism abroad.
america is, however, losing the propaganda war. guantanamo bay and the military prisons in Iraq and elsewhere are spun by the Jihadist propaganda machine into something that they are not. they are prisons, and prisons are never five star, but are really day care centres compared to the mass murdering that the jihadists engage in everyday. the american propaganda machine is not winning. they should be pointing out that people who kill civilians and strap dynamite to little kids, as military strategy, are not freedom fighters. they are mass murderers. they are murdering their own people on busses and in market squares. this needs to be pointed out again and again. unfortunately, it is not. the reason for this is the overwhelming influence of the liberal agenda on american mass media. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| and there hasn't been an attack on the American homeland since 911. |
Sorry Beck's this has nothing to do with Iraq. Saddam never had ties with Al Qaeda.
The soldiers lives that have been lost is indeed tragic and sad and also for no reason, which I feel is a disgrace for these good people.
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| america is, however, losing the propaganda war. guantanamo bay and the military prisons in Iraq and elsewhere are spun by the Jihadist propaganda machine into something that they are not. they are prisons, and prisons are never five star, |
America has lost the propaganda war. Jihadist propaganda has nothing to do with Guantanamo, any sane person can see this is an illegal camp, it's not on american soil for a reason. This is western media who is against this. Where the majority of the 'inmates' have been picked up and subjected to closed military trials with no representation or no trial at all. And not charged with any offence so they spend years locked up. If they have done wrong there should be proof. Locking up people without trial goes against basic human rights, especially coming from the 'land of the free' and a 'democracy'. Hypocritical to say the least.
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| unfortunately, it is not. the reason for this is the overwhelming influence of the liberal agenda on american mass media. |
CNN, is a cable news network, the New York Times is a newspaper (selling papers makes money), MSNBC (another cable channel). They are not allowed free speech. The BBC in england lost it's two most important directors because they told the truth about the war, and Blair didn't like that so found a reason to oust them. Being replaced by labourites, who sing for the government is it any wonder that their best journalists defected. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| Militarily, there is little going wrong with the war in Iraq... |
Supporters of the war and the Bush Administration are around 30%. What is it about EFL in Asia that attracts so many C/N-C's?
I do welcome you, Beck's, as someone who apparently is actually interested in the discussion, as opposed to Rovian personal attacks and bullshit. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| they should be pointing out that people who kill civilians and strap dynamite to little kids, as military strategy, are not freedom fighters. they are mass murderers. |
I'm betting you don't hold the same view of the US/coalition forces that indiscriminately kill civilians. Don't say it doesn't happen. That would be a lie.
Do you hold us to the same standard? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Dome Vans"]
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| and there hasn't been an attack on the American homeland since 911. |
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| Sorry Beck's this has nothing to do with Iraq. Saddam never had ties with Al Qaeda. |
Saddam however did have ties to terror but more than that middle east was a threat to the US and Iraq is a strategic country.
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| America has lost the propaganda war. Jihadist propaganda has nothing to do with Guantanamo, any sane person can see this is an illegal camp, it's not on american soil for a reason. This is western media who is against this. Where the majority of the 'inmates' have been picked up and subjected to closed military trials with no representation or no trial at all. And not charged with any offence so they spend years locked up. If they have done wrong there should be proof. Locking up people without trial goes against basic human rights, especially coming from the 'land of the free' and a 'democracy'. Hypocritical to say the least. |
The US system is not up to handling terror .
IF a mideasterner was caught in Afghan fighting for the Taliban then what was he.
Al Qaeda is a hate group they are both criminal illegal combatants.
Letting them go means they attack again but they are not pows either cause Al Qaeda fighter are criminals.
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| CNN, is a cable news network, the New York Times is a newspaper (selling papers makes money), MSNBC (another cable channel). They are not allowed free speech. The BBC in england lost it's two most important directors because they told the truth about the war, and Blair didn't like that so found a reason to oust them. Being replaced by labourites, who sing for the government is it any wonder that their best journalists defected. |
Where is your proof of this conspiracy? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
| beck's wrote: |
| Militarily, there is little going wrong with the war in Iraq... |
Supporters of the war and the Bush Administration are around 30%. What is it about EFL in Asia that attracts so many C/N-C's?
I do welcome you, Beck's, as someone who apparently is actually interested in the discussion, as opposed to Rovian personal attacks and *beep*. |
War support is about 40% , And their is another 15-20% that would be sympathetic to the goals for the US in principle
Bush approval rating is about 35% . |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Saddam however did have ties to terror but more than that middle east was a threat to the US and Iraq is a strategic country. |
But not Al Qaeda. They did 9/11 and so the link between Iraq and 9/11 is non-existent.
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America has lost the propaganda war. Jihadist propaganda has nothing to do with Guantanamo, any sane person can see this is an illegal camp, it's not on american soil for a reason. This is western media who is against this. Where the majority of the 'inmates' have been picked up and subjected to closed military trials with no representation or no trial at all. And not charged with any offence so they spend years locked up. If they have done wrong there should be proof. Locking up people without trial goes against basic human rights, especially coming from the 'land of the free' and a 'democracy'. Hypocritical to say the least.
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The US system is not up to handling terror .
IF a mideasterner was caught in Afghan fighting for the Taliban then what was he.
Al Qaeda is a hate group they are both criminal illegal combatants.
Letting them go means they attack again but they are not pows either cause Al Qaeda fighter are criminals. |
This is the one. Nobody can defend Guantanamo Bay, sorry. It is indefensible. Why is everybody asking for it to be closed, even for the States, it is turning into an embarrassment.
Give them trials if you are so certain of their guilt, and not military ones! |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Dome Vans"][
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| But not Al Qaeda. They did 9/11 and so the link between Iraq and 9/11 is non-existent. |
Not much more than nominal contacts.
But this the way the mideast is the reason for AQ.
And Saddam had it coming anyway. Plus when his regime taught hate and incited violence as a tactic it helped bring the conditions for AQ.
[quote]
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| This is the one. Nobody can defend Guantanamo Bay, sorry. It is indefensible. Why is everybody asking for it to be closed, even for the States, it is turning into an embarrassment. |
Well I think it is ok.
AQ are illegal combants . they are not POWS and the justice system can't deal with them. That is the reality.
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| Give them trials if you are so certain of their guilt, and not military ones |
So they can find out the sources of US info , so they can find out US intel methods?
There are at least 70,000 and up to 250,000 Al Qaeida and other terror types out there .
The US system could never not handle it. That is the fact. Winning the war comes before anything and everything else. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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People keep bring up the inhumanity of Guantanamo Bay. Guantanamo is a day care centre compared to what the Jihadists are up to. These are the people who saw off the heads of their captives while filming the prisoners screaming for their lives and airing the scene on the internet like some kind of Jihadist snuff film.
I'm not saying that Guantanamo Bay is a five star hotel. It isn't but I do believe that it is necessary to have a facility like this to question captured Jihadists for information etc. We are in the middle of a war for heaven's sake.
The idea that the Jihadists are some sort of "freedom fighters" is ludicrous. They are mass murderers pure and simple. They are murdering fellow Muslims because of differing interpretations of the Koran. They are murdering more of their own people than they are American soldiers. This needs to be shouted from the roof tops by American propagandists.
The American military do not target civilians. Sure, civilians are killed as a result of the war and this is horrible but they are never made the principal targets of American military action. This is where the American military differs from the Jihadists. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Guantanamo is a day care centre compared to what the Jihadists are up to. |
These jihadists don't paint themselves as a democracy who are upholding the rights of the citizens, which include basic human rights. America likes to represent itself as that. Think this is called hypocrisy.
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| It isn't but I do believe that it is necessary to have a facility like this to question captured Jihadists for information etc. We are in the middle of a war for heaven's sake. |
It's necessary that if you are holding prisoners that they receive a fair trial, NOT a military trial.
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| They are not POWs. |
If you have reason to believe they are a danger then you can prove it. America isn't proving their guilt. Maybe they found their Al Qaeda membership cards in their wallets, simple!
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| The American military do not target civilians. |
Rubbish there are no ethics in war. Do what you want. You never hear about the wayward bombs in the US media. Stifled info. Maybe show the coffins coming home, that's realism.
How can you invade Iraq and claim it's for humanitarian reasons, when you are flagrantly disregarding basic humans right in Guantanamo Bay. Take a step back and look, because if you don't see a problem with Guantanamo Bay then you need help seeing and understanding. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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the US isn't in Iraq for humanitarian reasons , then again if the Bathists, the kHomeni followers and the Al Qaedists weren't so evil and ruthless then the US might not be in Iraq.
Fighting against them saves lives. Whatever it takes.
They are illegal combatants. Which means they ought to be held until the war is over at the same time they are also criminals so they are not entitled to everything a POW is. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Which means they ought to be held until the war is over |
This is a war against an ideology, how long is that going to take? 20 years? 300 years? The idea of being able to pin an date on winning this war, was never in the plan, if there was a plan to start with. Which judging by the mess, there appears not to be.
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| at the same time they are also criminals so they are not entitled to everything a POW is. |
If they are criminals in the eyes of global law and basic human rights then try them and convict them. You can't? Not even a small trial? Well let them go, they are not guilty of whatever you are trying to pin on them. |
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