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| Do you support Taiwan's bid for U.N. Membership? |
| Yes |
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60% |
[ 9 ] |
| No |
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40% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 15 |
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Message |
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| From China's point of view, Taiwan IS part of China. Taiwan should be free, however, you have a big David versus Goliath scenario. I seriously doubt any country in the world cares for Taiwan enough to go to war with China over it. |
When you feed the dragon bite-size chunks to keep it happy, one day it has grown big enough to eat you. They have swallowed Hong Kong and Macau. Now they are focussed on Taiwan. Just how far do their territorial claims extend? Maybe 50 years from now they will be broaching the "Korea is part of China" policy at every summit. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: China |
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My Korean co-teacher told me that China has already started excising chunks of North Korea, that had been Korean for centuries. The cemeteries in the new "Chinese" territory all have hangul on the tombstones. She was visibly annoyed at this.
Macau & HK are semi-autonomous, & still have their own currency & border controls. That's the only way incorporation into the PRC will work, imho. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: China |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
My Korean co-teacher told me that China has already started excising chunks of North Korea, that had been Korean for centuries. The cemeteries in the new "Chinese" territory all have hangul on the tombstones. She was visibly annoyed at this.
Macau & HK are semi-autonomous, & still have their own currency & border controls. That's the only way incorporation into the PRC will work, imho. |
There's no doubt if NK ever fell, China would quickly move south to establish itself as NK's modern and historic caretaker. However much SKers biatch and moan about the US military here, the fact remains if NK fell, the only thing deterring China from any large land grabs would be the US forces in the south. If you're sending SK and American "medical and support stuff" into the North, the Chinese are going to take a much more conciliatory stance. IE the trip wire still has a job to do. |
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dogshed
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
Nobody cares I see?
Typical traitorous westerners. Sell out your allies but suck up to your enemies. |
Please excuse me for not spending 24 hours a day monitoring Dave's for chances to defend my country's foreign policy.
The first post looked interesting and I was going to give an answer, but the second post makes me want to tell you to frell off. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: Re: China |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
My Korean co-teacher told me that China has already started excising chunks of North Korea, that had been Korean for centuries. The cemeteries in the new "Chinese" territory all have hangul on the tombstones. She was visibly annoyed at this.
Macau & HK are semi-autonomous, & still have their own currency & border controls. That's the only way incorporation into the PRC will work, imho. |
The Chinese are quite tolerant of ethnic minority Koreans located in Yanbian, Jilin province. Bold is mine.
| Quote: |
Beijing's policy toward ethnic Koreans has always been somewhat contradictory. On one hand, the Chinese central government follows the Leninist principles it learned from the Soviet Union. According to these principles, the ethnic minorities should be given manifold privileges, often at the expense of the majority group.
Indeed, this is frequently the case with the ethnic Koreans. But there were periods of unease and even open persecution, especially in the crazy decade of Mao's Cultural Revolution beginning in 1966. A middle-aged ethnic-Korean businessman told me, "Back in the late 1960s, I seldom saw my parents. Because they were members of an ethnic minority, they had to go to ideological-struggle sessions every day and had to stay until very late."
However, that period was an exception. The same person, who said he is not a fan of the current Chinese system, still admitted when asked about discrimination: "Discrimination? Well, almost none, to be frank. They appoint some Han Chinese officials to supervise the administration, but basically I don't think Korean people here have problems with promotions or business because of their ethnicity. Sometimes being a minority even helps a bit - it's easier to get to a university if you come from a minority group."
It is clear that many Korean community cultural institutions rely on generous subsidies from the central government. The Chinese state sponsors a large network of the Korean-language schools, so until recently nearly all Korean children received secondary education in their ancestors' tongue. If they wish, they can attend Yanbian University, where ethnic Koreans are given preferential treatment for the entrance exams.
The local television network broadcasts in Korean and the newsstands in the area sell a number of Korean-language periodicals. Some of these publications hardly need sponsorship, since they deal with the ever popular topics of sex, crime and violence, but many others, such as high-brow literary magazines or rather boring local dailies, would go out of business without their state subsidies.
A local law requires every street sign in the prefecture to be written in both Korean and Chinese, and it explicitly stipulates that Korean letters should not be smaller or placed below the Chinese characters. This even applies to advertisements.
The Korean heritage (or rather those parts of the heritage that are deemed politically safe) is much flaunted in the area because it is one of factors that make Yanji attractive to potential tourists. So Korean restaurants are everywhere and local advertisements frequently use images of beautiful girls clad in the Korean national dress or hanbok.
However, it would be a mistake to depict the Chinese policy in the area as an ideal to be emulated. The potential threat of irredentism has never been completely forgotten, and it is an open secret that radical Korean nationalists have dreamed about annexing this area since at least the early 1900s. They often say Yanbian is actually a "third Korea" (the other two being North and South), so it should be included into a Greater Korea that they believe will emerge one day. |
Chinese policy towards ethnic minorities approaches the liberalism found in immigrant-built nations in the West like the US and Canada.
The average Korean perspective on this issue is suspect. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Nobody cares I see? |
I, for one, do not care. I would support Beijing's reasserting legal and administrative control over its province.
And I do not consider the Taiwanese "friends," by the way. They, like most Koreans, despise, hate, and blame America for all their problems. Just last week a Taiwanese guy at my university subjected me to a diatribe on how America controls Taiwanese politics -- the Taiwanese president cannot even give a speech without asking the White House's permission, he charged -- and we should butt out. Every Taiwanese I know talks like this, usually conspiratorially with other Taiwanese, and sometimes even worse. Message received.
On the other hand, there is much to be gained by strengthening Chinese-American relations. Beijeing and not Taiwan is America's historically-misunderstood but very significant trading partner and potential ally. And I would support pulling out all American forces and military agreements from East Asia -- save, perhaps Japan, until they might remilitarize. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: Re: China |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| chris_J2 wrote: |
My Korean co-teacher told me that China has already started excising chunks of North Korea, that had been Korean for centuries. The cemeteries in the new "Chinese" territory all have hangul on the tombstones. She was visibly annoyed at this.
Macau & HK are semi-autonomous, & still have their own currency & border controls. That's the only way incorporation into the PRC will work, imho. |
The Chinese are quite tolerant of ethnic minority Koreans located in Yanbian, Jilin province. Bold is mine.
| Quote: |
Beijing's policy toward ethnic Koreans has always been somewhat contradictory. On one hand, the Chinese central government follows the Leninist principles it learned from the Soviet Union. According to these principles, the ethnic minorities should be given manifold privileges, often at the expense of the majority group.
Indeed, this is frequently the case with the ethnic Koreans. But there were periods of unease and even open persecution, especially in the crazy decade of Mao's Cultural Revolution beginning in 1966. A middle-aged ethnic-Korean businessman told me, "Back in the late 1960s, I seldom saw my parents. Because they were members of an ethnic minority, they had to go to ideological-struggle sessions every day and had to stay until very late."
However, that period was an exception. The same person, who said he is not a fan of the current Chinese system, still admitted when asked about discrimination: "Discrimination? Well, almost none, to be frank. They appoint some Han Chinese officials to supervise the administration, but basically I don't think Korean people here have problems with promotions or business because of their ethnicity. Sometimes being a minority even helps a bit - it's easier to get to a university if you come from a minority group."
It is clear that many Korean community cultural institutions rely on generous subsidies from the central government. The Chinese state sponsors a large network of the Korean-language schools, so until recently nearly all Korean children received secondary education in their ancestors' tongue. If they wish, they can attend Yanbian University, where ethnic Koreans are given preferential treatment for the entrance exams.
The local television network broadcasts in Korean and the newsstands in the area sell a number of Korean-language periodicals. Some of these publications hardly need sponsorship, since they deal with the ever popular topics of sex, crime and violence, but many others, such as high-brow literary magazines or rather boring local dailies, would go out of business without their state subsidies.
A local law requires every street sign in the prefecture to be written in both Korean and Chinese, and it explicitly stipulates that Korean letters should not be smaller or placed below the Chinese characters. This even applies to advertisements.
The Korean heritage (or rather those parts of the heritage that are deemed politically safe) is much flaunted in the area because it is one of factors that make Yanji attractive to potential tourists. So Korean restaurants are everywhere and local advertisements frequently use images of beautiful girls clad in the Korean national dress or hanbok.
However, it would be a mistake to depict the Chinese policy in the area as an ideal to be emulated. The potential threat of irredentism has never been completely forgotten, and it is an open secret that radical Korean nationalists have dreamed about annexing this area since at least the early 1900s. They often say Yanbian is actually a "third Korea" (the other two being North and South), so it should be included into a Greater Korea that they believe will emerge one day. |
Chinese policy towards ethnic minorities approaches the liberalism found in immigrant-built nations in the West like the US and Canada.
The average Korean perspective on this issue is suspect. |
Uh, Tibet? East Turkmenistan? ?
| Quote: |
HONG KONG�The Hong Kong Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy reported on September 3 that a major conflict erupted between the Han race and the Hui race in Shandong Province, China. Thousands of people clashed in the streets. Authorities have imposed a media ban of the event.
The Information Center said that a fight broke out in Shimiao Town, Huimin County, Shandong Province on August 17. At least one person from the Hui race is dead and more than 20 people in total have been injured. Hundreds of armed policemen remain in the area. Shimiao Town is near where the Hui residents in Shanghe County, Shandong Province.
The Information Center said that a Hui youth was suspected of stealing and so, was beaten by a member of the Han race on August 17. Afterwards, members of the Hui race rushed the commercial district of Shimiao Town, beat people and vandalized property. Four police vehicles were destroyed. The local Han people counterattacked. The situation was brought under control only after hundreds of armed police came to the scene on August 19. There have been no media reports.
The Information Center also recorded another well-known racial Han-Hui conflict; the "Yangxin Incident" back on December 8, 2000 also in Shandong Province. In that incident, a pork dealer held a sign, "Muslim Pork," which sparked thousands from the Hui race to protest. The police shot and killed six members of the Hui race during the crackdown. |
Perhaps the reason you feel the Chinese are fair to ethnic minorities is because the media blackouts of various events is effective (I post the article not in reference to policy but to the media ban)? That, and you forgot about Tibet. And while not an ethnic minority, the followers of falun gong are hardly treated with respect.
What the heck are you talking about? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: ... |
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| They, like most Koreans, despise, hate, and blame America for all their problems. |
That's not the sense I got from living there. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: China |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Quote: |
Chinese policy towards ethnic minorities approaches the liberalism found in immigrant-built nations in the West like the US and Canada.
The average Korean perspective on this issue is suspect. |
Uh, Tibet? East Turkmenistan? ? |
Somehow I forgot about those. I quickly wanted to respond to the poster's co-teacher's charge about Chinese oppression directed towards the 'Third Korea.' I then went to class.
There are about 80 officially recognized minorities. Most of them are treated no better, no worse than the Han majority as far as the Central government is concerned. Anyway, you're right to bring up these two notable exceptions.
Yes, the Tibetans and Uighers in particular are oppressed, but on the other hand each, the Uighers more than the Tibetans, have active seperatist movements. This is not apologetics, I'd rather they weren't oppressed.
But the Koreans of Jilin are not oppressed. I've talked to a few. They're simply not.
| Quote: |
HONG KONG�The Hong Kong Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy reported on September 3 that a major conflict erupted between the Han race and the Hui race in Shandong Province, China. Thousands of people clashed in the streets. Authorities have imposed a media ban of the event.
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Perhaps the reason you feel the Chinese are fair to ethnic minorities is because the media blackouts of various events is effective (I post the article not in reference to policy but to the media ban)? That, and you forgot about Tibet. And while not an ethnic minority, the followers of falun gong are hardly treated with respect.
What the heck are you talking about?[/quote]
I'm aware of the media blackout. I'm going on my own experience, which has not been too extensive. There's lots of Han unrest, and a lot of the problem is largely about justice, corruption, and poverty. I've never sensed any sort of racial tension directed by Han Chinese towards minorities, except for the Uighers.
I find it amusing to see you defending the Falun Dafa. At any rate, I'm not sure what to make of Falun Dafa, but assuredly the Chinese are too harsh in their response. But this really goes more to establish the authoritarian nature of the Chinese government rather than the racial tolerance of the Chinese people. I do not deny in general the authoritarianism of the CCP. But there is a history of tolerance by the Han majority towards the 'original' ethnic minorities throughout Chinese history. Tibetans have it rough because of course they are a conquered people. The Americans and Canadians were not exactly liberal with regards to their indigineous populations. The Uighers is a more interesting and complex story that I will not get into here. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: China |
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But the Koreans of Jilin are not oppressed. I've talked to a few. They're simply not.
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I didn't say they were. I am fully uninformed about them.
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| I find it amusing to see you defending the Falun Dafa. |
Why? Because I'm critical of religion? The Chinese government has been killing them and stealing their organs. First and foremost, I'm a civil libertarian, and that is gawd damn offensive to my libertarian ears.
What you don't get about my criticism of religion is that I don't want them to be illegal, I want them to be treated like adults. I'm really pist off at the kid gloves that we are using to deal with muslims. I think it is cultural suicide to be culturally insecure in the face of such an aggressive ideology.
I like Chinese people and culture. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they were extremely fair culturally to their ethnic minorities. The CCP is another beast all together. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Taiwan |
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My Korean coteacher was probably referring to the town of Ji'an, which is on the north bank of the Yalu River, the current border between North Korea & China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%27an%2C_Jilin
"Until 427 CE, Ji'an was the capital of Goguryeo, and was called Guknae seong (or Guonei, in Chinese), for 400 years until the capital's relocation to Hwando fortress(which is also currently in Ji'an) in 209 CE. The Capital Cities and Tombs of the Ancient Koguryo Kingdom, located in Ji'an Jilin and Huanren Manchu Autonomous County Liaoning, have been listed as part of a UNESCO World Heritage Site." |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: Taiwan |
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My Korean coteacher was probably referring to the town of Ji'an, which is on the north bank of the Yalu River, the current border between North Korea & China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%27an%2C_Jilin
"Until 427 CE, Ji'an was the capital of Goguryeo, and was called Guknae seong (or Guonei, in Chinese), for 400 years until the capital's relocation to Hwando fortress(which is also currently in Ji'an) in 209 CE. The Capital Cities and Tombs of the Ancient Koguryo Kingdom, located in Ji'an Jilin and Huanren Manchu Autonomous County Liaoning, have been listed as part of a UNESCO World Heritage Site." |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| They, like most Koreans, despise, hate, and blame America for all their problems. |
That's not the sense I got from living there. |
Me neither. They actually seemed quite welcoming and pro-western. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| They, like most Koreans, despise, hate, and blame America for all their problems. |
That's not the sense I got from living there. |
Me neither. They actually seemed quite welcoming and pro-western. |
I didn't live there, but I did study with 4 of them in a program with about 40 mainlanders. These Taiwanese were extremely supportive of the United States. More than most Americans I know.
Gopher, you might find that the dude who said that to you just had his mind polluted by years of "higher" education. I've met very few people that have survived a social-sciences PhD with their critical reasoning skills in order. May allah keep your mind strong, Gopher. Resist! |
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