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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| DaeguKid wrote: |
| I watched Loose Change. Lots of questions need to be answered. |
What would you say are the top 3 that need to be answered? |
Why was the chain of command changed for the US before 9/11 so Rumsfeld was directly in charge on 9/11, and why was he unable to get planes up when planes that go off course or have some other anomaly are routinely tracked by military planes?
Who made the put options?
Why did the 9/11 commission do such a crap job?
Why do both the former commission chairs now say a new investigation is needed?
What possible reason is there to not release the videos of the plane hitting the Pentagon?
Why was Bush not removed from the school immediately, given that in any other situation before or since the president is whisked off so fast you'd barely be able to see 'em moving?
Why do people assume a counter theory is bull and counter theorists are crazy when so many supposed "loony conspiracies" have proven to have been real?
Let's take the simplest: Gulf of Tonkin. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well, as for the engine I would say those guys proved it. Well done.
Of course I am sceptical about a lot of stuff but their sources are very good. Eg: If I find one site that says a certain thing, it's only one site, which also gets lost in the mire after I close it I can't find it again except Wikipedia, whereas they have come up with many sources to back the claim of a 757 hitting.
How can one defend an argument when so many sources give evidence against it? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
| How can one defend an argument when so many sources give evidence against it? |
I'm convinced!
Name that fallacy  
1,000,000 people say the world is FLAT.
1 little old grannie stands up & says in a weak & shaky voice ... uhh ... excuse me ... but the world is really round.
Conclusion: the world must therefore be flat?
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
Why was the chain of command changed for the US before 9/11 so Rumsfeld was directly in charge on 9/11, and why was he unable to get planes up when planes that go off course or have some other anomaly are routinely tracked by military planes? |
Why were people being paid $5.15 an hour put in charge of defending thousands of flying missiles?
| Quote: |
| Why do both the former commission chairs now say a new investigation is needed? |
Ah, 9/11 is about political gain but this call isn't? Maybe the commission chairs want to remain in the public eye to further some election agenda? Your statement is rather vague to begin with. Upon what basis do they want a new investigation? Because they think Bush did it? Or because they think there is better evidence to hang Bush for sleeping at the switch?
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| What possible reason is there to not release the videos of the plane hitting the Pentagon? |
The same reason new 757 engine part photos turned up after that one guy's trial. You don't make evidence public until after a trial?
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| Why was Bush not removed from the school immediately, given that in any other situation before or since the president is whisked off so fast you'd barely be able to see 'em moving? |
Because he's Bush. What has he ever done switfly and decisively? He was right on that Katrina thing too.
| Quote: |
| Why do people assume a counter theory is bull and counter theorists are crazy when so many supposed "loony conspiracies" have proven to have been real? |
They don't assume it's bull. It just lacks evidence. The evidence used is disingenuous, made up, fallacious, uses quote mining and cherry picking. When you wade into their evidence and find it's just a sea of logical fallacies, you're not assuming it's bull. You have strong evidence it's bull.
And what loony conspiracy with so many fallacious claims has ever turned out to be true?
| Quote: |
| Let's take the simplest: Gulf of Tonkin. |
The guy next to me likes kimchi on his toast. Therefore I like kimchi on my toast? C'mon. Simply stating because something has happened in the past doesn't mean it is evidence for your current case. While I agree if someone is a murderer in the past, you might reasonably believe he is more likely to murder in the future and any random citizen, the Johnson government isn't the Bush government. They're two different people.
In any regard, I don't doubt for a second Bush used 9/11 after the fact to advance his agenda.
Also, the Gulf of Tonkin, even if made up, didn't involve the death of 2,000 US citizens. Can you direct me to evidence, these kinds of act are common within the American government? A little bit unprecedented no? Bush I used the slapping of a GI to invade Panama. I'm sure if Bush II wanted to invade Iraq he wouldn't have had to kill thousands of Americans.
And at the end of the day, these questions you pose don't have anything to do with the US government destroying the WTC et al. They point to a f'd up government and a government that took crass advantage of a tragedy. Oh well.
Anyway, EFL, aside from this being evidence for an inept and corrupt government, how is it actually evidence for a government conspiracy that killed 2,000+ American citizens?
Last edited by mindmetoo on Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:37 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Cheonmunka wrote: |
| How can one defend an argument when so many sources give evidence against it? |
I'm convinced!
Name that fallacy
1,000,000 people say the world is FLAT.
1 little old grannie stands up & says ... uhh ... excuse me ... but the world is really round.
Conclusion: the world must therefore be flat? |
No. The fallacy you describe is appeal to popularity. Let's look at it this way: 10 oncologists tell you you have cancer. 1 chiropractor says you don't. How you going to believe? The consensus expert opinion? Or the single non expert?
Or to use your example, a million non experts called the earth flat. The experts at the time said it was round.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Also, the Gulf of Tonkin, even if made up, didn't involve the death of 2,000 US citizens. Can you direct me to evidence, these kinds of act are common within the American government? A little bit unprecedented no? Bush I used the slapping of a GI to invade Panama. I'm sure if Bush II wanted to invade Iraq he wouldn't have had to kill thousands of Americans. |
Operation Northwoods (U2Joo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwoods
What was that PNAC quote? Something about needing a catalyzing event?
Like to to see you explain that one away Joo ... er ... i mean Umoo2
Typical Hegelian thing 
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| How you going to believe? The consensus expert opinion? Or the single non expert? |
Still may be no cancer.
Expert = appeal to authority. Pop news is notorious for this tripe. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Also, the Gulf of Tonkin, even if made up, didn't involve the death of 2,000 US citizens. Can you direct me to evidence, these kinds of act are common within the American government? A little bit unprecedented no? Bush I used the slapping of a GI to invade Panama. I'm sure if Bush II wanted to invade Iraq he wouldn't have had to kill thousands of Americans. |
Operation Northwoods (U2Joo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwoods
What was that PNAC quote? Something about needing a catalyzing event?
Like to to see you explain that one away Joo ... er ... i mean Umoo2
Typical Hegelian thing
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| How you going to believe? The consensus expert opinion? Or the single non expert? |
Still may be no cancer.
Expert = appeal to authority. Pop news is notorious for this tripe. |
Yes, still might be no cancer but where do you want to lay the smart money? That is the function of appeals to expert authority. Can you really conduct your own biopsy? In the case of the 757 engine part, can you get the part yourself, take it to Boeing, compare it? So what level of evidence do you need to believe or reject the claim, barring your ability to test claims yourself?
The logical fallacy is more properly called "improper appeal to authority".
Einstein says this car is better. That's an improper appeal to authority.
Four tax lawyers say your deduction is illegal. That's a proper appeal.
*pat pat* Clear now?
And please Northwoods. Some cracker with a desk job in government cooks up a plan. There's a plan to nuke Canada, I'm sure, on file in the Pentagon. Contingency plans cooked up by people trying to justify their desk job don't imply probability of action. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DaeguKid wrote: |
I personally think the higher powers that be in this world had something to do with 9-11. I could care less if you agree with me or not, any of you for that matter.
The connection with Northwoods and 911 is to show you that the government had thought about this long ago. It is not a new idea. |
Please demonstrate how the particularities of Northwoods of 1962 (from Wiki: "Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of simulated or real terrorism and violence on US soil or against US interests, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro.....plans which were not implemented") lead one to the conclusion that the US govt, in 2001, deliberately killed nearly 3000 people in the WTC using airplanes as weapons and blaming Islamic fundamentalists.
| Quote: |
| After watching Loose Change, how do you watch and say it is all BS? |
Because it's been comprehensively refuted by the following:
http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr
http://www.screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
http://lolinfowars.co.nr/
http://www.911myths.com
http://www.debunking911.com
http://www.loosechangeguide.com
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| There are soooooo many pieces of evidence there. I guess its up to you to believe it or not....your choice. |
You read the above links thoroughly (and watch 'Screw Loose Change', which is 3 hours in length and heavy-going, but well worth it) and come back and tell me you still believe the conspiracy. But please, try to avoid already-debunked pseudo-science and intellectual malfeasance. For instance, an excellent come-back would be to show us a single demolition firm or expert in the whole world who supports the demolition hypothesis.
Last edited by SPINOZA on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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RE: Keane
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| What possible reason is there to not release the videos of the plane hitting the Pentagon? |
Which video are you looking for?
The Pentagon Security video Camera 1.
(released May 16, 2006)
The Pentagon Security video Camera 2.
(released May 16, 2006)
The Citgo Station video.
(released Sept. 15, 2006)
The Doubletree video.
(released Dec. 4, 2006)
Is there another video you are looking for? |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| DaeguKid wrote: |
| Anyhow, I remember looking at it and thinking to myself, no way in hell a plane hit that! |
Copied and pasted from earlier in the thread and from here:
Studies by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the American Society of Civil Engineers, and Purdue University, including computer simulations, show that the damage to the Pentagon was entirely consistent with a crashing airplane.
| Quote: |
| A plane would leave so much more of a mark... |
It did leave much more than a mark. That was a Loose Change distortion. Had Loose Changed moved the camera to the left, it would have revealed a much larger hole consistent with a plane having crashed into it.
See Screw Loose Change at the 48 minute mark to see how badly Loose Change screwed up on that point.
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| where those tapes from the gas station? From the Sheraton? From the freeway? WHERE? We can see the Twin Towers getting hit on youtube 24/7, but nothing on the Pentagon. Why are there so many different eye witness events from the Pentagon? |
See Screw Loose Change at the 58 minutes to 61 minutes mark for an answer.
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| As for the "where are the victims of the Pentagon flights?" Well I ask you, where are their families? Where are these peoples names? A plane never hit it the Pentagon. It was something else. The craziest part is, as mentioned above, is that there are videos that can clear this up. Why have we not seen them? Oh wait we have....as if! There is nothing that resembles a plane to me. |
Studies by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the American Society of Civil Engineers, and Purdue University, including computer simulations, show that the damage to the Pentagon was entirely consistent with a crashing airplane.
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Too many questions have gone unanswered. But if you feel that you have received all you what to know, do me a favor and answer my questions above.....nothing like peace of mind I guess.
DK |
If you genuinely want answers, please visit the links in my previous post. I'm gonna try to not keep repeating this point, but, again, I like you thought Loose Change was a documentary. It's complete fiction, almost every sentence, and the sentences that are not utterly false are dubious in some other way, such as begging the question or using unconfirmed sources that took place on 9/11 morning and therefore were confused, plain wrong or sheer speculation. 'loose Change' has been totally discredited. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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It's a complete waste of time to try to educate those who buy into these ludicrous conspiracy theories. They point to junk science and say that disproves the actual scientfic analyses (no, it's not misspelled; that's the plural). They also condemn "the mainstream media" for "not reporting" the junk science. What the CTs forget is that both real science and real journalism have standards. The scientists, whom they condemn, operate from the point of "evidence first, conclusion based on the evidence." Then the CTs forget that journalists, at least the ethical ones they condemn, will not report some insane pipe dream as though it's fact. The journalists will check with real scientists.
Seriously, Buzz Aldrin had it spot-on. CTs are only looking for attention. They not only don't know what the facts are; they don't even care about them, as shown in this thread already. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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I love reading the conspiracy theory sites. These whack jobs are so funny that it livens up a boring afternoon.
One comment of the engine. When big parts hit steel reinforces masonry buildings they become smaller. It is one of the facts of life. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Bill_Maher_Thinks_911_Truthers_should_0915.html
Bill Maher calls 9/11 truthers idjits. Wow, I guess he's part of the conspiracy or blindly follow Bush propaganda.
"Crazy people who still think the government brought down the Twin Towers in a controlled explosion have to stop pretending that I'm the one who's being naive," says Maher.
How big a lunatic do you have to be to watch two giant airliners packed with jet fuel slam into buildings on live TV, igniting a massive inferno that burned for two hours, and then think 'Well, if you believe that was the cause...'
Stop asking me to raise this ridiculous topic on the show and start asking your doctor if Paxil is right for you." |
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DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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mindmetoo....don't take this personal at all, but it seems you answer many of the questions with questions and analogies.
the put options? Quite a few and way more than the daily average...on Boeing and AA. That needs to be answered. Those who had the put options knew what was up.
Osama in a Saudi US base hospital? Why?
Bush sitting in the school....you say its Bush style....that answer just doesn't work for me....I can't think what was going through the mans mind at the time, but there is not a person in this world that didn't run to a TV set when they heard the news....what did he do? He read a book.
Spinner....I will watch those videos. I will watch them with an open mind just as I watched Loose Change.
But the MAJOR question here is this....Why did the American Military go to Iraq? And for that matter why are they still there? We all know the answer is oil. Were WMD's found? No. Iraq is free of Saddam, why don't the US gov't let them be....no connection to 911 you say? Do you really feel that way...it paved the way. 9-11 scared alot of people. The Freedom Act as they like to call it. Freedom? That the government can do what they like when they like.
Spinner...once again, Northwoods. It was considered. Many ideas that were considered in the past have become reality today. Have you ever thought of something before to only put it off for a while and do it later? I am not saying they are one in the same. Never did. But if 911 is related to a higher power within the US then it starts to look the same doesn't it.
As I said earlier, I will take a look at those videos that counter Loose Change. I want to watch them. I want to be wrong. I want to trust this world and the powers of democracy. We all do!
I threw alot out here with the Freedom Act and Iraq, but I strongly feel a correlation with 9-11. I am expecting rebutals. We were not put on this earth to agree with everything everyone says, but at least we respond politley.
The attacking of Iraq due to WMD's and the Freedom Act would have never existed if September 11th 2001 never occurred.
DK |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| DaeguKid wrote: |
the put options? Quite a few and way more than the daily average...on Boeing and AA. That needs to be answered. Those who had the put options knew what was up. |
But how is that evidence the government is responsible?
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| Bush sitting in the school....you say its Bush style....that answer just doesn't work for me....I can't think what was going through the mans mind at the time, but there is not a person in this world that didn't run to a TV set when they heard the news....what did he do? He read a book. |
But how is that evidence the government is responsible?
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| But the MAJOR question here is this....Why did the American Military go to Iraq? And for that matter why are they still there? |
But how is that evidence the government is responsible?
Anyway, what are your top three evidences for a government conspiracy? By this I mean not evidence:
a) the government merely took posthoc advantage
b) governments are corrupt |
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