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Cuba Has Better Health Care Than U.S.?
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:01 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

As you see, he has no health costs to pay...

Thanks. Yes, I now see: no one in the Commonwealth pays any health-care costs. Indeed, it is free there.

By the way, totally unrelated question: how is the tax situation? How is it all holding up? No complaints or calls for reform, I take it...?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:19 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

As you see, he has no health costs to pay...

I don't mind giving a higher proportion of my income as tax and national health insurance. The thing is, living in places where tax is low, I've learnt you have to pay for all these things - like health, education, rubbish removal, etc etc, - anyway. So one way or another, you end up paying. But the difference is, when for some reason you can't pay (imagine an accident renders you wheelchair bound, or a vicious assault leaves you unable to work for a year, or some other unforeseen event leaves you unable to fend for yourself as you normally would have) you are still covered, unlike in countries where you make arrangements with private business. I'm interested in living in a society, not an economy. I've spoken to people from Scandanavia where they pay about half their income in taxes, and many seem very happy with their system. And those who don't probably don't realise how many advantages they have in their society. That's not to say the UK or Scandanavia are better than the US. But in this narrow regard, I prefer the UK system over the US one. However, the UK system still has much room for improvement.

A certain someone with a Masters in Economics will no doubt want to pipe up that the European tax models are less than adequate. I've heard all the arguments, and am not interested in rehashing them with him, so he may say what he will, and I will bite my 'douchebag' tongue. Wink

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:03 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

I prefer the UK system over the US one.

Chuckling about your tongue. That notwithstanding, this is hardly surprising. Old habits die hard. Western-Europeans have been ethnocentrically and self-righteously lecturing the rest of the world how to live for at least the last five-hundred years, Big_Bird. Why should you be different vis-a-vis how you think Americans ought to live?

Thanks, in any case, for clarifying that British healthcare is not "free," per se. And thanks for acknowledging that its tax system is not Utopian and without flaws, either.

By the way, since there are flaws, does that mean you think the entire thing is an absolute failure and therefore worthless...?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:13 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

By the way, since there are flaws, does that mean you think the entire thing is an absolute failure and therefore worthless...?

In other words do I think that because the US system has flaws it is worthless?

Obviously it is working for many, but many of the lecturers across the pond would like to lecture you on its failure to catch as much of the population as possible. You've got holes in the net and they're big holes, and a lot of people are falling through them. I think that's a shame, seeing as your nation could easily have the best system in the world if you (as a nation) chose it. Why settle for so-so when you could have something much better.

Saying that, if I were a rich b@stard, I'd probably seek hospital treatment there. Well, either there or Switzerland, where I could look out at the Lake Geneva and snow capped mountains as I recuperated.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:36 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Gopher wrote:

By the way, since there are flaws, does that mean you think the entire thing is an absolute failure and therefore worthless...?

In other words do I think that because the US system has flaws it is worthless?

No. I meant whether you felt that since the British and the other Western-European tax systems may suffer flaws and could use reform, does this mean you denounce said tax systems as "failed systems" -- that is, as absolute failures and worthless...?

Last edited by Gopher on Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:38 am Post subject:

Depends really, if..i don't know..lets say 10% of brits were not covered by the system.. that would be pretty worrying

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:41 am Post subject:

British unemployment hit something like five percent last year. Over one-and-a-half million people who wanted to work but the system could offer them nothing. Is that a failed economy? Nothing good about that economy, except for "the rich bastards?" Last edited by Gopher on Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:42 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Gopher wrote:

By the way, since there are flaws, does that mean you think the entire thing is an absolute failure and therefore worthless...?

In other words do I think that because the US system has flaws it is worthless?

I knew what you were literally asking me, but I was addressing what you were implicitly asking.

And you already know that my answer to your literal question is "Of course not."

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:46 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

British unemployment hit something like five percent last year. Over one-and-a-half million people who wanted to work but the system could offer them nothing.

Is that a failed economy? Nothing good about that economy, except for "the rich bastards?"

This is, as you like to say, apples and pears. Many of us nasty little Europeans believe that one's access to universal healthcare is even more important than the opportunity to be fully employed from leaving school until retirement. It's not feasible in a capitalist society for there to be full employment at all times. However, it is possible for a society to provide universal healthcare.

While being unemployed may affect quality of life etc, being without healthcare might mean the difference between life and death.

Last edited by Big_Bird on Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:47 am Post subject:

So Britain's universal healthcare system is Utopian? No flaws, no defects, no reform needed?

Big_Bird wrote:

And you already know that my answer to your literal question is "Of course not."

Then you would agree with me that employing "failed system" to generally characterize the entire American health-care system -- in need of reform or not -- and like, apparently, many social and economic indicators in our countries, is a bit harsh and tends to ignore that it is indeed working for the vast majority of the people, and even more when one includes the benefits poorer people may receive via programs like Medicaid and Medi-Cal or treatment at many community hospitals and other private foundations that have gone unnoted in the statistics partisans are employing to state their case...?

Last edited by Gopher on Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:53 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

So Britain's universal healthcare system is Utopian?

Big_Bird wrote:

And you already know that my answer to your literal question is "Of course not."

Then you would agree with me that employing "failed system" to characterize the American health-care system, in need of reform or not, and like, apparently, many social and economic indicators in our countries, is a bit harsh and tends to ignore that it is indeed working for the vast majority of the people...?

Whether or not it's a failed system, the system does appear to be failing millions of people. If you believe (like some of us nasty lefty Europeans) that the state has a duty to provide healthcare to all its citizens, then one could argue that the US system is a failed system. If you believe that the state has no duty to do so, and that access to healthcare is not a right, then all is well.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:57 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

If you believe (like some of us nasty lefty Europeans) that the state has a duty to provide healthcare to all its citizens, then one could argue that the US system is a failed system. If you believe that the state has no duty to do so, and that access to healthcare is not a right, then all is well.

Great.

Do you believe that non-Leftist Europeans have a right to determine for themselves what kind of state and society they want and that said non-Leftist Europeans have a right to work this out in their own domestic political processes without Leftist-European wisdom and guidance bearing down on them? And do you also believe that non-Leftist Europeans might even choose a state and society that Leftist Europeans might not approve of...?

If so, what would you do then?

Also, is the Leftist European state and social system flawless and perfect, Big_Bird? States do their jobs, all state services function uniformly and fairly for all classes and races, and no one is left behind?

Last edited by Gopher on Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:01 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Well, that's called democracy, and has to be figured out with votes. The Tories would secretly like to do away with the NHS, but don't dare, because they know that too many of their electorate believe in universal healthcare. If a party can convince the majority that they can provide a better system then the majority will go along with it, and the minority will just have to suck it up. That's democracy.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:07 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Also, is the Leftist European state and social system flawless and perfect, Big_Bird? States do their jobs, all state services function uniformly and fairly for all classes and races, and no one is left behind?

No, of course not. But just because you can't acheive perfection, doesn't mean you shouldn't aim to do the best you can. I don't see perfection being acheived purely with private enterprise, do you? There are some who will argue that the free-market is the best solution. They present some good arguments. But having followed the arguments for years, I find myself believing that somethings need to stay in the public domain. That includes health.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:10 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Well, that's called democracy, and has to be figured out with votes...just because you can't acheive perfection, doesn't mean you shouldn't aim to do the best you can.

That is right. And at the end of the day, we Americans are figuring out our own solution with our own votes and doing the best we can. Not everyone votes the same in a democracy, Big_Bird -- and not everyone votes the same over time, as well. Situations change. Democracies exist in a constant flux. Especially ours. It has been this way since the 1790s. Our American democratic system remains a work in progress.

And, in any case, what we decide to do with our healthcare system is ultimately our own business.

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